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Bug 786810 - Consider changing panel order/grouping in new shell design
Consider changing panel order/grouping in new shell design
Status: RESOLVED OBSOLETE
Product: gnome-control-center
Classification: Core
Component: shell
git master
Other Linux
: Normal normal
: ---
Assigned To: Control-Center Maintainers
Control-Center Maintainers
: 787659 787706 791682 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
 
Reported: 2017-08-25 16:48 UTC by Jeremy Bicha
Modified: 2021-06-09 16:26 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: ---



Description Jeremy Bicha 2017-08-25 16:48:50 UTC
3.25.91 with the new shell has these in the top section:
Wi-Fi
Bluetooth

Near the bottom is another section:
Sound
Power
Network
Devices

Suggestion
==========
Please consider moving Network to the top section (specifically I suggest at the bottom of the list to follow the precedent set by Devices being at the bottom of the Devices section). Network is a kind of Device but so are Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.

The current layout is confusing because Wi-Fi and Network are very far apart in the sidebar, but Wi-Fi is strongly related to networking.

Similarly, Bluetooth is next to Wi-Fi but Bluetooth Networking is far away.

Even when Bluetooth isn't used for Internet, it is a kind of network and it makes sense for it to be near the Wi-Fi settings. The common theme for the top section would then be Networking related settings.
Comment 1 Bastien Nocera 2017-08-31 19:40:49 UTC
I don't think it should be moved to the top section, unless the machine has no Wi-Fi available.

This is a problem for a lot of other panels as well, such as the 1 screen version of the Displays panel, the Wacom panel, the touch panel, etc. See bug 650699.

Note that using the patch from bug 786607 is also going to make your life better...
Comment 2 Jeremy Bicha 2017-08-31 20:41:34 UTC
I feel like you are missing my point. I feel that neither of the bugs you mentioned have anything to do with this issue.

Wi-Fi and Network are closely related and it is confusing that they are so far apart from each other. Wi-Fi is more strongly connected to Network than it is to Bluetooth.

Wi-Fi & Network were in the same panel in 3.24 so why shouldn't they be in the same section now?
Comment 3 Bastien Nocera 2017-08-31 22:27:12 UTC
(In reply to Jeremy Bicha from comment #2)
> I feel like you are missing my point. I feel that neither of the bugs you
> mentioned have anything to do with this issue.

Absolutely not missing the point. Why do you need access to the Network panel more than any of the personalisation features that are just below the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth ones?

Wired network works if you just plug the cable. Having the Network panel be shown, in case you need to modify your network, is the most important thing on your machine if you don't have Wi-Fi, because that's the way you access the Internet. And so is Bluetooth for a number of people.

The Settings remembering the previous panel helps the "open settings, modify settings, close settings, find out settings don't work, reopen settings" loop which would otherwise be really annoying, especially if the panel you want isn't as easily accessible, which is what you seem to be getting at.

(Near the top is more important, otherwise Network being at the bottom of the window at the default size wouldn't be a problem, right?)

So I think my 2 bugs were completely relevant to whether or not the Network panel should be moved.

> Wi-Fi and Network are closely related and it is confusing that they are so
> far apart from each other. Wi-Fi is more strongly connected to Network than
> it is to Bluetooth.
> 
> Wi-Fi & Network were in the same panel in 3.24 so why shouldn't they be in
> the same section now?

The way things were is a bad justification, especially when I (or we, I worked with Allan on that) feel that the new layout is better than the old one. Not perfect, but better.
Comment 4 Allan Day 2017-09-01 09:16:29 UTC
I don't particularly see the issue here. Strict adherence to categorical groupings is not the goal of the new settings shell. The goal is to prioritise the most interesting/important panels, so that they get more attention and are quicker to find.
Comment 5 Jeremy Bicha 2017-09-01 12:08:17 UTC
(In reply to Allan Day from comment #4)
> I don't particularly see the issue here. Strict adherence to categorical
> groupings is not the goal of the new settings shell. The goal is to
> prioritise the most interesting/important panels, so that they get more
> attention and are quicker to find.

I think that could get complicated. I look at Power far more often than changing my background.

I don't change what Language I want to use my computer very often…

Categorized grouping is useful for helping users find the setting they are looking for faster. Otherwise, it's a big wall of text in the left hand sidebar.[1] We do have those sections for a good reason.

Also, for 3.28, isn't there talk about splitting Mobile Broadband into its own panel? It seems odd if the top section would have everything Network-related except the Network panel.


[1] Off-topic: the mini symbolic icons do help with that here a bit.
Comment 6 Michael Biebl 2017-09-13 22:22:08 UTC
I have to agree here. Wifi belongs into the network tab
Comment 7 Julian Andres Klode 2017-09-13 22:39:22 UTC
(In reply to Allan Day from comment #4)
> I don't particularly see the issue here. Strict adherence to categorical
> groupings is not the goal of the new settings shell. The goal is to
> prioritise the most interesting/important panels, so that they get more
> attention and are quicker to find.

Panels like 'Search'? Who configures stuff like that? Or notifications - both these panels are really details nobody probably bothers looking at. A good start would be to get to a point where at default height, the list of categories on the left fits into the default size of the window, so you don't get OCD mad because there's still a hidden item there and scroll bars and stuff.

And more dynamic might be good too: On a device without WiFi or Bluetooth, move it to the bottom. If you have a cable plugged into your ethernet port, move it up.

Power essentially configures just hardware, so why is that not in devices.

One other thing confusing me half of the time is that keyboard mappings are configured in Region & Language and not Keyboard. That's odd. Everytime I want to configure my keyboard, I go to the keyboard panel only to see that I'm wrong and slowly remember than I need to go to Region & Languages. Anyway, how often are you to change Region & Language and your Keyboard mappings. Shouldn't that be moved to Details? (Region & Language is kind of like Date & Time if you think about it, except for the keyboard part).
Comment 8 Julian Andres Klode 2017-09-13 22:44:29 UTC
I just became aware that this might have sounded a bit aggressive, that was not my intention but it's late at night. I'm just making a few suggestions :)

I generally agree with the WiFi / Network split though, while WiFi and Bluetooth are Network, the Network panel is more an advanced network thing. Maybe it just needs to be called "More Network" "Other Networks" or something.
Comment 9 Rui Matos 2017-09-14 08:38:05 UTC
*** Bug 787659 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 10 Rui Matos 2017-09-14 08:41:42 UTC
Let's try to keep panel order/grouping discussions in a single place. In order to move this forward I'm asking that people throw in their suggestions for panel order/grouping with brief rationales if you feel like it but please keep it substantive and to the point. Thanks
Comment 11 Hans de Goede 2017-09-14 10:09:57 UTC
For starters let me quote myself from bug 787659, which had as summary:

"Getting to the display settings is awkward / cumbersome with the new layout"

Changing display settings:

Gnome 2: right click monitor systray icon (1 click)
Gnome 3 <= 3.24: Click system menu, click settings icons, click display (3 clicks, ok)
Gnome 3.26: Click system menu, click settings icons, scroll down (ugh having to scroll is really really bad here) till devices, click devices click display (4 clicks + having to scroll, ugh not nice)

I personally believe that having display settings easily accessible is important (on a laptop where one typically plugs in a projector for presentations regularly). OTOH I have to agree that notifcations and search are not used that much and could maybe be moved to the details "submenu"? Likewise since we have wifi and bluetooth as a separate menu items I feel that network could be put under the devices "submenu" haivng both wifi and network as toplevel items seems like we are duplicating things.

All in all I have to agree with others that the most important thing IMHO is, that given that the control-panel has a fixes size, we should arrange things in such a way that there is no scrollbar. Having to scroll to get to any of the settings is really tedious (and almost impossible on a touchscreen).
Comment 12 Jeremy Bicha 2017-09-14 20:24:06 UTC
Hans, right click on the Desktop to get to Display Settings.
Comment 13 Hans de Goede 2017-09-17 10:27:44 UTC
(In reply to Jeremy Bicha from comment #12)
> Hans, right click on the Desktop to get to Display Settings.

That does not work when:

a) Running a maximized app
b) Running in classic mode with nautilus managing the desktop

And:

c) Is not easily discoverable
Comment 14 Felipe Borges 2017-09-20 14:22:45 UTC
*** Bug 787706 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 15 Frederic Crozat 2017-10-03 14:31:17 UTC
(In reply to Allan Day from comment #4)
> I don't particularly see the issue here. Strict adherence to categorical
> groupings is not the goal of the new settings shell. The goal is to
> prioritise the most interesting/important panels, so that they get more
> attention and are quicker to find.

This is problematic on systems where Wifi or Bluetooth aren't available (think a server). Right now, when people starts g-c-c, they end-up on a panel which isn't useful.
Comment 16 Julian Andres Klode 2017-10-03 15:50:44 UTC
A server is a bad example, it should not have a GUI in the first place. But then, a typical workstation is probably a good one.
Comment 17 Frederic Crozat 2017-10-04 08:02:14 UTC
(In reply to Julian Andres Klode from comment #16)
> A server is a bad example, it should not have a GUI in the first place.

It depends on users and use cases.

The current design is only working for laptop.
Comment 18 Allan Day 2017-10-04 10:56:58 UTC
(In reply to Frederic Crozat from comment #15)
> This is problematic on systems where Wifi or Bluetooth aren't available
> (think a server). Right now, when people starts g-c-c, they end-up on a
> panel which isn't useful.

Isn't that more an issue of when the panels are shown, rather than their position? If it is, bug 650699 might be your issue.

(In reply to Frederic Crozat from comment #17)
...
> The current design is only working for laptop.

Many desktop machines have wi-fi and bluetooth nowadays...
Comment 19 Frederic Crozat 2017-10-04 11:16:27 UTC
(In reply to Allan Day from comment #18)
> (In reply to Frederic Crozat from comment #15)
> > This is problematic on systems where Wifi or Bluetooth aren't available
> > (think a server). Right now, when people starts g-c-c, they end-up on a
> > panel which isn't useful.
> 
> Isn't that more an issue of when the panels are shown, rather than their
> position? If it is, bug 650699 might be your issue.

Indeed, I didn't notice this old bug. Hiding Wifi and Bluetooth when adapters aren't available (or if running without NetworkManager) would do the trick without a need to change the order.
 
> (In reply to Frederic Crozat from comment #17)
> ...
> > The current design is only working for laptop.
> 
> Many desktop machines have wi-fi and bluetooth nowadays...

Sorry, I should have said "is working best for laptops" ;)

You could also think about running GNOME in VM. But again, bug 650699 can handle that too.
Comment 20 Paul Smith 2017-10-31 17:32:51 UTC
I filed a long-ish bug on Launchpad and was pointed here.

First let me say that I really like the new layout conceptually: having the items along the left and displaying their content in the same 'frame' is very nice.  However...

Having read the above comments in this bug, I do think that trying to choose "more important" items to be "near the top" and more visible is going to be very subjective and so hard to justify.  Especially since, as already discussed, different types of systems (desktops vs. laptops) have very different use models and thus have different requirements and capabilities.  

If it were just a matter of choosing some ordering, then I guess a best-guess would be fine.  However choosing a not-universal item such as Wi-Fi (my desktop has no Wi-Fi adapter so my default screen is a big question mark telling me I don't have some hardware--not lovely: bug #650699) as the default is not ideal.  I'd personally prefer using the About screen as the default.

Also, "some ordering" is only good if all the items can fit in the window without scrolling, which is definitely not true today (bug #789372).  Since it's not true, and in general it's not possible, that means we need to group some items into sub-menus so everything will fit.  And once we decide to do that the ordering becomes less critical IMO.

Quoted from Launchpad, lightly edited:

If I happen to move my mouse into the menu area I _may_ notice a very thin "scroll area" show up briefly before it disappears again, or I _may_ notice very subtle dotted lines at the bottom of the menu, and I _may_ notice that there is actually another menu item at the bottom that I have to scroll down to see: Details.

And if I happen to find that and click on that sub-menu, I will find critically important items in there such as Date & Time configuration (what I was looking for to get an AM/PM clock, and couldn't find at all), Users configuration (couldn't find that either so had to add users by hand from the CLI), and Default Applications (also important so I can change the default mail client etc.)

What does "Details" really mean?  This menu might as well be named "Miscellaneous". Really that would be MORE helpful: at least it would be clear that there's a bunch of random stuff below that menu, which is the reality. The only thing in "Details" that feels appropriate to the name is the "About" menu.

But, the About menu item should be on the top-level menu at either the top or the bottom of the list (I prefer it to be the top, default selection so it's immediately visible)... people think it's not important but it's actually REALLY important, so inexperienced users can easily obtain, or be instructed to obtain, without lots of scrolling and clicking, critical system details when getting help.

And the grouping of these menus needs love: for example, why is "Wi-Fi" a separate menu item from "Network"? I would think that Wi-Fi, Network, Online Accounts and Sharing could all be combined into one sub-menu like "Internet" or similar. Actually I don't have a Wi-Fi adapter in my system so I don't know what shows up there: maybe "Wi-Fi" is more about the hardware, and belongs under "Devices"? Either way.

Also I think "Region & Language", "Universal Access", and possibly "Date & Time" could be grouped together.

And "Background", "Privacy", and "Notifications" could be grouped under some sort of "desktop" menu. Or maybe "Region & Language" would stay a top-level item and "Universal Access" and "Date & Time" would be added to "Desktop".

Anyway. I realize there are lots of ways to chop these items up and people will have disagreements, but the current situation needs attention: the control center must avoid the need for scrolling to see all the options and when things are moved into sub-menus the names of those menus have to be made thoughtfully: they need to be evocative and clear... "Details" is neither IMO.

Thanks!
Comment 21 Jonathan Kang 2017-11-01 07:58:45 UTC
One of the most powerful feature we have is search. Simply type what you look for
after opening Settings, and you're good to go.

Different people might have completely different thoughts on what the order of
those panels should be. It's a bit hard to suit everyone's needs. So search
when you can, and it can really save you lots of time.
Comment 22 Hans de Goede 2017-11-01 08:23:39 UTC
(In reply to Jonathan Kang from comment #21)
> One of the most powerful feature we have is search. Simply type what you
> look for
> after opening Settings, and you're good to go.
> 
> Different people might have completely different thoughts on what the order
> of
> those panels should be. It's a bit hard to suit everyone's needs. So search
> when you can, and it can really save you lots of time.

Although search is nice and the right order indeed is subjective IMHO the hard to discover and hard to use scrollbar is the biggest issue really. We really should group some more stuff together in a submenu so that we can get rid of the scrollbar.
Comment 23 Jonathan Kang 2017-11-01 09:00:53 UTC
(In reply to Hans de Goede from comment #22)
> Although search is nice and the right order indeed is subjective IMHO the
> hard to discover and hard to use scrollbar is the biggest issue really. We
> really should group some more stuff together in a submenu so that we can get
> rid of the scrollbar.

Yep. Searching is just a tip to quickly get what you want.

I agree that some improvements should be done about grouping those panels.
Comment 24 Paul Smith 2017-11-01 14:32:16 UTC
I agree search is very nice.  But, as mentioned above we need to be careful we don't use it as a crutch to avoid worrying about discoverability.  In search I entered "clock" and found nothing.  Sure, I could try again with "time" and find something, but maybe instead I decide this isn't the right place after all and go off looking for some other way to modify the clock: I try right-clicking on the clock itself to find configuration options (doesn't work of course), etc.

Also, sometimes I don't really know what I might want to configure: I just installed the system and I'm simply poking around to see what is available and what I might like to change.  If I never notice that I can scroll down I'll miss all sort of useful options.

I get that there's no way to make everyone happy but I think we can get closer than we are today.
Comment 25 Rui Matos 2017-12-18 10:30:10 UTC
*** Bug 791682 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 26 André Klapper 2021-06-09 16:26:41 UTC
GNOME is going to shut down bugzilla.gnome.org in favor of gitlab.gnome.org.
As part of that, we are mass-closing older open tickets in bugzilla.gnome.org
which have not seen updates for a longer time (resources are unfortunately
quite limited so not every ticket can get handled).

If you can still reproduce the situation described in this ticket in a recent
and supported software version, then please follow
  https://wiki.gnome.org/GettingInTouch/BugReportingGuidelines
and create a new bug report at
  https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/issues/

Thank you for your understanding and your help.