GNOME Bugzilla – Bug 537441
Add CD Stub submissions
Last modified: 2021-05-17 16:00:53 UTC
Sound juicer shows an annoying nag screen when it finds a CD not listed on MusicBrainz. Now MusicBrainz doesn't seem to support anonymous contributions and I have absolutely no intend of publishing a list of all CDs which ever found their way into my computer - so this nag screen is annoying me alot. Seriously[1]. So can we get rid of it please? Even a "never bug me again" button would help.
[1] http://taschenorakel.de/mathias/2008/06/09/nag-screens-have-reached-gnome-now/
Created attachment 112426 [details] The source of annoyance.
No. We're using a co-operative CD index. * We have an obligation to submit data back * Removing it means I have to re-open "Hard to submit new CD TOCs" and "Please alert when using sub-optimal data" If you are really that bothered then write a patch adding a gconf key, but if the privacy thing bothers you then a) we're already doing a lookup with your IP and b) just press close.
By the way, is this feature meant to submit the CD information that sound-juicer knows? The (awful) musicbrainz website seems to want me to re-enter all the titles.
Ross(In reply to comment #3) > No. We're using a co-operative CD index. I absolutely do not care about co-operative CD index which do not allow annoymous usage. > * We have an obligation to submit data back So Sound Juicer cannot use this service without explicit acknowledgement by the user. By activating that service by default you obviously encourage your users to violate the terms of use of this service. Pirate, you. > * Removing it means I have to re-open "Hard to submit new CD TOCs" and "Please > alert when using sub-optimal data" Probably, since you obviously provided a non-working solution for that problem. Non-working by annoying users with a nag screen. Non-working by encouraging your users to violate law. > If you are really that bothered then write a patch adding a gconf key, but if > the privacy thing bothers you then a) we're already doing a lookup with your IP The IP address really is meaningless considering basic networking features like NAT. > and b) just press close. Everytime? Seriously, you must be joking.
AND NO! THIS BUG IS NOT SOLVED YET!
Seriously, get a grip. Give us a patch to make it an option, enabled by default, or live with the feature as it is.
One solution would be to ask the user if he wants to use an online CD index at first use, plus an option if he changes his mind.
(in reply to comment #4) > By the way, is this feature meant to submit the CD information that > sound-juicer knows? The (awful) musicbrainz website seems to want me to > re-enter all the titles. For albums for which MB has no metadata, then you'll be asked to enter it from scratch. Sadly the submission web service is very complicated. It is possible to enter just the album name and it will search FreeDB for you, which is often good enough. Often though MB will have metadata but the TOC doesn't match, for example the TOC may be for the British pressing but you have the German pressing. MB will detect this (I think straight away, maybe after entering the artist name) and let you assoicate your TOC with the right album. (In reply to comment #5) > Ross(In reply to comment #3) > > No. We're using a co-operative CD index. > > I absolutely do not care about co-operative CD index which do not allow > annoymous usage. This is an issue with Musicbrainz, so speak to them. > > * We have an obligation to submit data back > > So Sound Juicer cannot use this service without explicit acknowledgement by the > user. By activating that service by default you obviously encourage your users > to violate the terms of use of this service. Pirate, you. > > > * Removing it means I have to re-open "Hard to submit new CD TOCs" and "Please > > alert when using sub-optimal data" > > Probably, since you obviously provided a non-working solution for that problem. > Non-working by annoying users with a nag screen. Non-working by encouraging > your users to violate law. The previous interface required you to know that there was a menu item to submit track metadata, and to psychically know that metadata needed submitting (normally a new TOC for an existing album). The cluebar solves both in one easy UI element which is familiar to users. What law am I encouraging users to voilate? > > If you are really that bothered then write a patch adding a gconf key, but if > > the privacy thing bothers you then > > a) we're already doing a lookup with your IP > > The IP address really is meaningless considering basic networking features like > NAT. Which for a home user simply hides the exact PC inside. My home ADSL's IP reveals my name, address, and phone number. > > and b) just press close. > > Everytime? Seriously, you must be joking. Everyime? I ripped 15 CDs yesterday and encountered the message twice. If you are ripping many CDs which have no metadata, then you really should submit them to Musicbrainz. Have you considered using bugmenot.com to get an anonymous login to musicbrainz? (In reply to comment #8) >One solution would be to ask the user if he wants to use an online CD index at >first use, plus an option if he changes his mind. Have you ever tried using SJ without an internet connection? Manually entering track names is not something you'll want to do for more than a few albums, and the target user rips more than that.
> > a) we're already doing a lookup with your IP > > > > The IP address really is meaningless considering basic networking features like > > NAT. > > Which for a home user simply hides the exact PC inside. My home ADSL's IP > reveals my name, address, and phone number. There are providers like Vodafone which apply NAT to all their UMTS customers. To the public all users of Vodafone's UMTS have the very same IP address of their UMTS gateway router. > What law am I encouraging users to voilate? With your words "No. We're using a co-operative CD index" you suggested there would be some terms of use for using that service requiring co-operation for using that service. So if that would have been the case you'd encourage your users to violate that terms of use. By using that data without respecting their terms of use your users would access that data in unlawful manner. Well, but I've checked their website to find those terms of use, and fortunatly most of the data is provided as public domain. So probably there is no problem. > > Everytime? Seriously, you must be joking. > Everyime? I ripped 15 CDs yesterday and encountered the message twice. If you > are ripping many CDs which have no metadata, then you really should submit them > to Musicbrainz. Have you considered using bugmenot.com to get an anonymous > login to musicbrainz? No, I just prefer not to share information with such dudes. Well and no, I won't start lying (by using bugmenot) just 'cause the owners of MusicBrain are morons. Btw, creating a patch now.
Dude, are you stupid or what?
Mathias, please calm down. This is out of proportion.
Mathias, stop being so paranoid. If you don't want to submit to MusicBrainz, ignore the box, or submit a patch to add a "Don't remind me" box. But this box was recently introduced as a much-needed feature. Just because you're paranoid that MusicBrainz is going to start selling off your music-listening habits doesn't mean this box should be there. I wouldn't object to a "Don't remind me" checkbox, but the vast majority of users will just ignore it. It's not a popup box that you have to do anything with, it's just a reminder ribbon that you can completely ignore and get on to doing whatever you were going to. Ross, thank you for the work on SoundJuicer, and I love the new ribbon - it was a welcome sight when I upgraded to 8.04. Keep it up.
Everybody please keep in mind that http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct also applies to GNOME Bugzilla. Thanks.
Joel: That's exactly what I planed. Murray, Andre: Pardon, but refusing discussion by closing with WONT FIX like Ross did also isn't the way how to handle such situations. Well, and big note: I really get annoyed how people regulary confuse privacy and paranoia. The term "paranoia" really is overused when it comes to privacy as a dangerous variation of Godwin's law.
Created attachment 112439 [details] [review] Give equal size to MusicBrainz notification buttons. Not really related to the problem described, but when such a screen is shown it should look proper at least.
Created attachment 112440 [details] [review] Provide checkbox to permanently disable the MusicBrainz submission Maybe reactivating the screen when the "Submit Track Names" is a bit shady, but inserting a dialog or adding another menu item really seems to be overkill.
@Ross: Pardon for annoying you being that loud. Sorry for that. Well, but I really do not want GNOME to turn into a nag-screen platform - and without a chance to disable it, this notification is a nagger. So I felt I have to be shrill.
Ross, please excuse me for my verbal outage. It wasn't acceptable in any way. Still I believe that this bug report describes a real problem with the user interface of Sound Juicer. I am pretty sure, that I am not the only person which gets upset when unforeseeable getting presented an account registration form after deciding to voluntary share information. Some thoughts about privacy =========================== In my experience quite some people still care about privacy and don't want to create accounts on any random website. You might see this different, you might even believe that there is no privacy, that this war is lost. Well, but personally I don't believe it is lost already and considering how careful our users are with entering information into Bug Buddy or even Bugzilla are, I am sure I am not alone with this POV. At events like Linuxtag you frequently meet users who tell you, that they do not use this services because of privacy concerns. I cannot tell how common those people are, but they exist. Back to MusicBrainz integration =============================== Lets investigate what happens when the users sees the MusicBrainz notification: 1) The user ignores it. 2) The user decides to submit. Case closed in the first case, interesting is the second one. Expection would now be, that SoundJuicer changes UI state to indicate it is submitting title information and then without any further intervention by the user uploads the data. Instead a browser window opens presenting a registration form. Now in the worst case you have offended the user two times: First of all you've touched the user's webbrowser, second the registration form. Assuming the user seriously cares about privacy, you really lost the user at this point: "MusicBrainz is crap, don't bug me with this sh**". At this point the user really doesn't care about the intentions behind MusicBrainz. The user just doesn't want to deal with that site. In such a situation of refusal it also doesn't help, that you could create a fake account. Obviously my reaction was the absolute extreme, still we should take those concerns seriously. Attachement 112440 provides one possible approach to handle that situation, but when thinking about this, that checkbox is really suboptimal: 1) The user is offended already. It's not clear if this checkbox can calm down the user. 2) The user might reconsider his/her opinion about MusicBrainz. So most probably we should improve our interaction with MusicBrainz. Should we just improve the notification text, information the user why authentication is required? Or is it possible to completely silently submit information? In that case we could ask the user, if he wants to create/use an MusicBrainz account. Maybe Sound Juicer can help on creating an anonymous account? Comments?
I've been notified about this bug after reporting it, almost identically, to Ubuntu's Launchpad. I'd like to link to it here, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sound-juicer/+bug/259748 , which hopefully shows you all that it's not just irritating one man, but also an average user such as myself and also my father! Unfortunately this bug appears to have turned it a petty quibble between developers, I can only hope this doesn't hinder the fact that it is still a problem. I do believe, as stated previously by Mathias Hasselmann, the issue really lies with submission to MusicBrainz relying on user (re-)entry and the peculiar requirement to be registered. Like Mathias has described in comment #19, I was expecting it all to be done in the background which I would have happily agreed to, resulting in dozens of new additions. If that can't be done for whatever reason, then the only real option is a "Do not ask again" button placed with the rest of this message.
I quite agree with the the reporter in that the submission process to MusicBrainz is not working properly. I often insert CDs that are not listed on MB, and I would like to contribute to back. I did it a few times, but it is painfully long (half an our for a proper submission with new artist, read the overly complicated submission rules etc.?) and I got some of my submissions deleted for some obscure reasons. Since then I never did it again, neither do I plan to start submitting again. MB claims to compare to wikipedia (see ref 2 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MusicBrainz ), but it is clearly not the case. Some suggestions (hope they are constructive): - Create a "submit" button that would submit all the modifications back to MB just in one-click. As anonymous submission aren't allowed, a "sound-juicer" account could be created on MB. This is likely to be rejected, as they blocked bugmenot. - As this isn't possible, and MB is too closed and "bugs" users, just give up and find another TOCs provider allowing anonymous submissions. Why not submitting to FreeDB? Let's consider MB as "high quality" TOCs. Try to find the TOC on MB. If MB doesn't contain the CD, try freedb. Then users can modify the tracks and other fields, and just have a button to submit to freedb so their modifications are immediately public. Next users inserting the same CD elsewhere would have a correctly-tagged view. There could be 2 buttons, one for a quick submission to freedb, and another for a longer painful submission to MB. Note that all this don't answer the "nagware" question (and here I quite disagree with the reporter: this panel is not that annoying (not a popup) and, if it was useful (as described above) it could be welcome).
We had some discussion about this issue in the MusciBrainz IRC channel and would like to offer a solution for this (see http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/2009/2009-02/2009-02-26.html#T21-54-44-726657). Since the last release of the MusicBrainz server we offer a functionality called CD stubs. CD stubs are raw CD releases that can be entered into MusicBrainz but which are not included into the main dataset. That means they don't have a MusicBrainz ID and advanced relationships and they expire after 14 days of inactivity, but they offer a basic track listing and can be used for CD lookups. Furthermore CD stubs can be entered anonymously and they can be imported into the main dataset by registered users. See http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CDStub for more information about this. Since CD stubs can be submitted anonymously via a web service this would solve the privacy concerns raised here (even if MusicBrainz is *not* giving away user data). But we would still prefer it, if Sound Juicer would encourage its users to contribute to MusicBrainz. I suggest the following workflow: 1. If a disc ID is not found allow the user to submit his manually entered track listing as a CD stub to MusicBrainz. 2. After he has submitted a CD stub, ask the user, if he wants to help to improve the data on MusicBrainz. 3. If he wants to contribute open the CD bug page in a browser, e.g. http://musicbrainz.org/show/cdstub/index.html?discid=IwAaUQ0N613_4XrIch6cciFlosk-. From there the user can import the disc ID or attach it to an existing release. The benefit for the user is that the whole track listing has been already submitted to MusicBrainz and he only needs to add additional data like release events. The web service for submitting CD stubs is described at http://musicbrainz.org/doc/XMLWebService#head-43278e4199c45fa4f1b75972a796ee13ad0b7e5e. A list of currently available CD stubs can be found at http://musicbrainz.org/show/cdstub/topstubs.html. If you want to implement CD stub submission I'm happy to help coordinating this with MusicBrainz. Philipp
(In reply to comment #22) > Since CD stubs can be submitted anonymously via a web service this would solve > the privacy concerns raised here (even if MusicBrainz is *not* giving away user > data). But we would still prefer it, if Sound Juicer would encourage its users > to contribute to MusicBrainz. > The concern is less that MusicBrainz gives away user data. The concern is, that over the time at least I've got totally bored of checking if some web service is trust worthy. So unless I have some real interest in some web service __at least I__ decide for opt-out now.
PS: Thank you Phillip for considering this case.
Any improvement on the MusicBrainz side in the last couple of years?
Review of attachment 112440 [details] [review]: Rejecting the option to permanently disable submission. You have the choice to not submit if you don't want to submit data. Obviously the submission process is far from optimal, but that is entirely orthogonal.
Review of attachment 112439 [details] [review]: This was fixed with the port to GtkInfobox, rejecting.
Retitling and adding a new comment because this bug has become a bit of a mess. http://musicbrainz.org/doc/XML_Web_Service/Version_1#Submitting_a_CDStub explains how to submit a "cd stub" to musicbrainz, which consists of basic metadata and no user data. Patches very welcome to implement cdstub submission in SJ.
*** Bug 544005 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
-- GitLab Migration Automatic Message -- This bug has been migrated to GNOME's GitLab instance and has been closed from further activity. You can subscribe and participate further through the new bug through this link to our GitLab instance: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/sound-juicer/-/issues/93.