After an evaluation, GNOME has moved from Bugzilla to GitLab. Learn more about GitLab.
No new issues can be reported in GNOME Bugzilla anymore.
To report an issue in a GNOME project, go to GNOME GitLab.
Do not go to GNOME Gitlab for: Bluefish, Doxygen, GnuCash, GStreamer, java-gnome, LDTP, NetworkManager, Tomboy.
Bug 469292 - evolution adds blank line to replies
evolution adds blank line to replies
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Product: evolution
Classification: Applications
Component: Mailer
2.12.x
Other Linux
: Normal normal
: ---
Assigned To: evolution-mail-maintainers
Evolution QA team
Depends on:
Blocks: 469605
 
 
Reported: 2007-08-22 15:51 UTC by Sebastien Bacher
Modified: 2013-09-13 00:56 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: 2.19/2.20



Description Sebastien Bacher 2007-08-22 15:51:20 UTC
The bug has been opened on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/127468

"Binary package hint: evolution

Evolution 2.11.5-Oubuntu1 in Gutsy adds a blank line to the top of a reply and positions the cursor there. This means that unless you want a blank line at the top of every reply, you have to delete that before composing your reply.

Agreed—this encourages top-posting which is a violation of RFC 1855."
Comment 1 Tobias Mueller 2007-08-22 16:53:12 UTC
This opposite is actually bug 450820.

It should be configurable, as I like this because I enter a greeting in the very first line.
Comment 2 Srinivasa Ragavan 2007-08-22 16:59:47 UTC
Seb, I would never go for a option for this in the main UI. It is already messy IMO. I feel that it is very useful, but Im open for discussion. I want to hear from more users. If lots of users feel that way, Im ok. But till that I would prefer to defer that as wont fix.
Comment 3 Sebastien Bacher 2007-08-22 19:00:23 UTC
I didn't suggest adding an option. Any reason to add a line there when the reply should be after the quoted text?
Comment 4 Srinivasa Ragavan 2007-08-23 04:24:20 UTC
Most of the users would have a greeting like 'Hi ****' as the firstline. We discussed this in bug #450820 . 


Comment 5 C de-Avillez 2007-08-23 12:50:02 UTC
Well... if you go Notes/Outlook, business usage, you will note that full top posting is the norm. I am not saying this is correct/incorrect, good or bad; it is just the way it is.

For me, this means I have to be careful when replying, since an email to a business that uses Notes/Outlook will probably expect top posting with no cutting of the previous email in the thread; OTH, I have to do the usual stuff if it is not N/O.

So... damned if the blank line goes away, damned if the blank line stays. 
Comment 6 Srinivasa Ragavan 2007-08-23 12:56:09 UTC
hggdh, Sorry I didn't get your point at all wrt full-top-posting. (Is that  you say that every thing is typed at the beginning? or something else?)
Comment 7 Tobias Mueller 2007-08-23 14:36:56 UTC
Hi,

(In reply to comment #6)
> hggdh, Sorry I didn't get your point at all wrt full-top-posting. (Is that  you
> say that every thing is typed at the beginning? or something else?)
> 

Yes. That exactly. And I can confirm hggdh's statement, top-posting is widely spread in business environments, due to the heavy distribution of Outlook.

I really think, there is no alternative at all to provide a configuration option for this, since it's really unexpected behaviour and people either want it or hate it. Nothing in between. Maybe an Advanced eMail Settings page would fit the need here. So marking as blocker to bug 469605
Comment 8 C de-Avillez 2007-08-23 15:07:09 UTC
yes, it will look like:

-------------cut here---------------
Hi Srivinasa,

Yes, this is the norm for most of the customers I have that run Outlook
or Notes. And, in fact, this reply can be used as a perfect example of
it.

So, if you look at an email thread in those environments, it will look
pretty much like this, with replies preceding the previous email (which
is, usually, shown in full).

Regards,

..hggdh..

-----Original Message-----
From: Evolution (bugzilla.gnome.org)
<bugzilla-daemon@bugzilla.gnome.org>
To: hggdh2@gmail.com
Subject: [Bug 469292] evolution adds blank line to replies
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:56:10 +0000 (UTC)

If you have any questions why you received this email, please see the text at
the end of this email. Replies to this email are NOT read, please see the text
at the end of this email. You can add comments to this bug at:
  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=469292

  Evolution | Mailer | Ver: 2.11.x




------- Comment #6 from Srinivasa Ragavan  2007-08-23 12:56 UTC -------
hggdh, Sorry I didn't get your point at all wrt full-top-posting. (Is that  you
say that every thing is typed at the beginning? or something else?)



-------------cut here---------------
Comment 9 Matthew Barnes 2007-09-21 20:30:56 UTC
Another bug opened downstream about this:
http://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=300001

The division of preferences seems pretty clear cut.  Exchange users want it because that's what Outlook does, everyone else seems opposed (not sure about GroupWise users).  Could we maybe use the account type as a heuristic for adding or not adding the blank line?

Exchange and maybe Groupwise: yes
Everything else: no
Comment 10 Sven Arvidsson 2007-10-13 14:16:55 UTC
This has also been reported in Debian as bug 446493. 
http://bugs.debian.org/446493
Comment 11 Timo Sirainen 2007-10-20 22:28:32 UTC
I don't care where the cursor goes, but the blank line is really annoying. I agree that adding a new setting in the UI for it would be bad, but how about just being able to change it from gconf?

Or the empty line could be part of ATTRIBUTION text so it could be changed from .po files.
Comment 12 Øystein Gisnås 2007-10-22 11:23:12 UTC
To me it sounds like both reply styles should be supported.

The most important is to follow the style of the previous conversation. For me that means I use bottom-reply in mailing lists and similar, while I top-reply more or less everything else. That is both at work (Outlook) and private.

Ideally there would be a per-account setting for this. As we don't have per-account settings, the next best thing is a global setting, I would say. Or what about a per-signature setting?

I am also concerned about UI clutter. The good news is that we already have a setting group called "Top Option Group" which can put the signature on top or bottom. The top-/bottom-posting option should be merged with this one. The wording could use some rework anyway. Top-posting should put a blank line, the cursor and signature on top. Bottom-posting should put all of it at the bottom.

Then there's the question of a default value...
Comment 13 Srinivasa Ragavan 2007-10-22 12:19:37 UTC
The reason, I took the patch is that, many users though dont do top posting, but have a greeting at the top. (If not all, I use to do it). If most users dont like it, we can take that off as well. But adding a UI for this, may be we need to free up something before adding more. 
Comment 14 Bojan Smojver 2008-01-16 23:14:43 UTC
Please remove that annoying line at the top. Whoever wants to write the greeting there can press return to get a new line.
Comment 15 Srinivasa Ragavan 2008-01-17 06:56:03 UTC
Hmm, I think I have heard enough complaints. In that case, we can go back to what we were before. I'll mark this for 2.21.90
Comment 16 Rudi Creemers 2008-01-19 05:51:07 UTC
Indeed the blank line at the top is very annoying, if you don 't need it. However, I would prefer an (general) option or setting "top-posting" or "bottom-posting", which would insert a blank line at the top or at the bottom of a reply. (I would never put a greeting on top and then the reply at the bottom, in that case you are breaking the logic of top- or bottom-replying. There is one exception, when inline-replying I put a greeting at the top, but then of course, everything is messed up.)
Comment 17 Srinivasa Ragavan 2008-02-20 10:43:41 UTC
Fixed in trunk. It adds new lines if top posting is enabled other wise not.
Comment 18 Patrick OCallaghan 2008-05-29 21:48:52 UTC
I'd just like to add my voice to those asking for top-posting to be an option, or rather for the existing option to affect the cursor position. Currently, the option only affects the signature position, but if I want the signature at the bottom, then I also want to type at the bottom. The argument that some people like to type a salutation at the top seems vacuous to me. They can still do so by scrolling if they want, just the way the rest of us currently have to scroll to the bottom.

Current setup:

I *always* need to scroll to the bottom, whether I want a salutation or not.

Proposed setup:

If I want an opening salutation I scroll to the top, otherwise not.

Note that some argue that placing the cursor at the top encourages selective quoting, which is a Good Thing. Given that in the current implementation the cursor goes at the top whether or not you use selective quoting, I fail to see the logic in this argument.
Comment 19 Timo Sirainen 2008-05-29 22:07:43 UTC
Well, since this bug is about opinions..

If I had to choose from "top-only posting" and "bottom-only posting", I'd definitely choose "top-only posting". It's annoying to read (or skip over) pages full of quoted text only to get to the new text (and yes, I see such threads in some mailing lists where everything gets quoted and only a few lines are added at the bottom - it's annoyingly laborious to read those threads).

The One True Correct quoting way is to selectively leave the important stuff quoted and insert your replies below them. That way it's clear what you're replying to when the quoted mail makes multiple points. Also all kinds of "Hello" lines and such (which exist in nearly all mails) are pointless in quotes.

Because of these it's best to keep the cursor at the top. You can quickly delete the "Hello" lines and then you can start answering the points made by the original post from top to bottom, inserting your replies where appropriate.

Comment 20 Patrick OCallaghan 2008-05-30 01:35:55 UTC
Well, at the moment you have no choice, but since Evo works the way you want you don't care. Since it doesn't work the way I want, I do care. That's why I'm asking for an option.

For some reason people seem to want to make this an argument about selective quoting in replies. Let me be clear that I like selective quoting and wish more people used it, but even when using the One True quoting method, more often than not I find I only want to address one point in the message, so I would still prefer to have the cursor located at the bottom.

Our preferences in this matter are dictated by custom, and by the kinds of mail we most frequently have to deal with, so it's perfectly reasonable to have different views on it. What's not reasonable is imposing a single view which only suits part of the user base (I won't even guess at what proportion), especially as the alternative would be relatively low-cost.
Comment 21 Srinivasa Ragavan 2008-05-30 03:24:12 UTC
Patrick, what do you mean by the cursor position? This deals about an extra line at the top or not. Can you be more clear to me?

See, if you want the signature at the bottom, means that you want to type in between. Not just at the end. You mean to say that the composer should be scrolled down? Im not clear.
Comment 22 Milan Crha 2008-05-30 07:21:48 UTC
Hi Patrick, this bug is only for "not adding empty line at the top", which was one of the issues you mentioned on the evo-list. The second issue, placing cursor to the bottom, is a question for brand new bug, because I do not want to change subject of this bug.

The question whether depend new behavior on already existing option or create new option, I would prefer to add new option, to the Top Posting section in Preferences, so one can distinguish where the signature will be and where he/she wants to start typing.
Comment 23 Patrick OCallaghan 2008-05-30 15:58:26 UTC
Milan, I added to this bug because I misinterpreted your recommendation on the Evo list.

Srini, sorry for the confusion. I've now filed a separate bug (535791).
Comment 24 Srinivasa Ragavan 2008-06-02 04:24:25 UTC
NP :-)