I'm branching this bug off of bug 75613 (sawfish edge-flipping doesn't obey
pager workspace-grid).  Too many people were arguing about the lack of a
standard edge-flipping feature in gnome (there's no UI to configure it for
sawfish, and the feature doesn't exist in metacity), which was orthogonal
to the brokenness of the feature in sawfish, and needs a "usability" keyword.

DISCLAIMER: Personally, I don't hold an opinion one way or the other on
this issue.  I like using edge-flipping myself, but understand how it can
be confusing for new users.  I'm opening this bug just to move the
discussion away from an inappropriate place.

The official topic of this bug is:

  "Edge-flipping is currently a no-no in gnome.  Sawfish has no UI to
configure it, and metacity doesn't support it at all.  It should be
supported somehow."

Here is an abridged version of some previous arguments:


From Havoc Pennington 2002-03-21 10:23 -------

My view is more or less "edge flipping is bad UI and I don't care
about it and it shouldn't be in the preferences," so I'm not sure
you'll get much action out of me on this. ;-)


From Havoc Pennington 2002-04-24 14:36 -------

I still think edge flipping is inferior to:

 - "Send to Workspace N" window menu item
 - Alt+space to get window menu, N to send to that space
 - Pick up window with mouse, flip workspaces with keyboard, 
   drop window
 - Move the window in the pager
 - Fixed "send to space N" bindings such as Alt+Ctrl+F3 to 
   send to space 3, or something

The edge flipping:
 - confuses people
 - breaks slamming window to the edge of the screen
 - only works for adjacent spaces

So I'd still close this bug. But it's not my bug so I won't. ;-)


From Travis Saling 2002-04-24 15:53 -------

Obviously I'm biased since I opened this bug report. :-) But I thought
it had been pretty well demonstrated that using keystrokes for actions
was less efficient and more distracting than using the mouse, even if
it "feels" like using keystrokes is quicker.

Also, I don't see how edge-flipping can be confusing when it is turned
off in the default setting.

Anyway, I agree with Aaron 100%. The original argument for deciding to
remove viewports was that workspaces can be made to function
equivalently, if I remember Havoc's e-mails to gnome-list correctly.
Since actually doing that is obviously not the intention of the Gnome
maintainers, I think the original decision needs to be revisited. If
it's one or the other, I'd get rid of multiple workspaces and keep the
viewports, personally.


From Havoc Pennington 2002-04-24 17:42 -------

As you say the "original argument for deciding to
remove viewports was that workspaces can be made to function
equivalently" - key word _can_, there is no reason to have viewports
just to get the features traditionally stuck to them.

Whether you want each feature is an orthogonal question.


From aaron@ximian.com 2002-05-24 17:53 -------

Right. So, what we're saying here is, we want that feature: logical,
spatial, workspace-based edgeflipping.  (Also overlapping.)

And dammit, "People like it" is TOO a good reason to have a feature.


From Wayne Schuller 2002-06-02 21:45 -------

I really enjoy edge flipping (with zero mouse resistance) in a 2x2 setup.

I just flip around the four different screens very quickly (as opposed
to a 1x4 setup).

It is a real productivity increase.


From C. Evans 2002-07-07 22:06 -------

I believe that edge flipping + 2d workspace geometry is a very
efficient form of window management. Havoc, could you
please support your argument that "edge flipping is bad UI" and
"confuses people", as well as "[the] vast majority of users do not
want it or use it [edge flipping]"? It seems you are making statements
about the user base without any evidence. Besides, in my opinion a 20%
user base would be sufficient to warrant support for a feature. It
seems that the argument going on here effectively says that if the
developers think that the majority of users don't use a feature, then
it should be removed.

I must agree with aaron@ximian.com and Travis Saling that this is an
efficient feature. In fact, in my opinion, edge-flipping is much more
intuitive than keybindings for a normal user -- nearly all normal
users I know use the mouse for menus, etc., not keybindings.
Keybindings are in fact much harder to understand, even if they are
more efficient. With edge-flipping, what is easier to understand: that
if you move a window past the right edge of the screen, it goes to
the screen to the right, or that if you press the right combination of
buttons, the window moves to some other screen, which is connected to
the former screen by some numeric system (1 to 2, 2 to 3)? 

Anyway, it would be greatly appreciated if someone could actually have
a poll on this subject or something. 


From Havoc Pennington 2002-07-07 22:56 -------

C., if you want the big metaphysical essay you can find it here:
http://pobox.com/~hp/free-software-ui.html

Basically, the UI should make decisions. Not be the union of all
possible UIs ever. Even though many of those UIs may be fine, 
having all of them at once is not fine - all good UIs combined make
one bad UI. Moreover, spending time on writing/debugging/maintaining
dozens of flavors of functionally-equivalent UI is silly when there
are other more interesting things to do, IMO. And no patches don't
help much here - no one ever _maintains_ the patch after they submit
it. ;-)

Edge flipping is not the best decision for the default, because it
breaks fitt's law (ability to slam your mouse to the edge of the
screen), it causes a big/jump/surprising context switch without an
explicit user action like clicking a button, and it's a complicated
pain to implement. This is edge flipping just to change workspaces.

Edge flipping _while moving a window_ is perhaps a bit more defensible
UI-wise, and easier to implement, but still has some of the same concerns.


From jgray@writeme.com 2002-07-30 16:40 -------

I happen to agree with Havoc that edge-flipping is bad UI because it's
confusing for users to have their windows disappear on them because
they held their mouse cursor too close to the edge of the screen for a
few milliseconds too long, HOWEVER, I think the feature should be able
to be enabled as a pref or hidden pref because it is something that a
lot of people want.  I just don't think it should be enabled by default.  

For some people edge-flipping really does enable them to work faster
and more efficiently.  I don't think the solution to users requesting
a feature is to say, "No, you really don't want that feature."  

And no, I don't think that every feature that is requested should be
implemented, but this is one case where a large number of users want
this feature and have used it in GNOME 1.x.  I personally won't use
this feature, but I thought I'd give my 2 cents.


From Søren Sandmann 2002-07-30 17:50 -------

Hmm, I just voted "yes" on the poll, but now that I'm reading the 
comments here, I think I voted yes to something else than I thought.

Edge-flipping (switching workspaces when mouse hits the edges) is a 
bad idea, but what exactly is wrong with being able to *drag* 
windows from workspace to workspace? Ie., edge-flipping, but only 
when you are dragging a window. Fitt's law doesn't apply here, 
because there is nothing to do at the edge of the screen when you 
are dragging a window.


From jgray@writeme.com 2002-07-30 17:58 -------

The poll referred to is:

http://pubcrawler.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=36&mode=nested&order=1&thold=-1


From Havoc Pennington 2002-07-30 19:08 -------

Edge flipping while dragging a window, with some edge resistance
perhaps, is arguably more defensible yes. I'm still not sure it's OK
to turn on by default.


From Daniel Borgmann 2002-07-30 19:20 -------

What about a compromise... 
With Metacity you can snap the window to edges when holding down the
shift key. So why not do edge flipping when holding down another key
like ALT? When pressing this key and grabbing the window, all the
screensides that have a workspace behind them could turn red (or
whatever is possible in X to make it look nice) to indicate you that
you can move your window above this "border" now. This would also have
to temporarily disable Metacity's habbit to block the window at the
top panel so it can actually be moved above there. Of course this
would require some safety check when dropping the window so it isn't
covered behind a panel... There are a lot of things that could go
wrong so it's probably questionable weither it's all worth it.

However... 
Advantages would be: 
- It's even more impressive because of the visual stuff.
- It never happens accidently to new users who don't have a clue what
it is.
- It also never happens accidently to experienced users who just
forgot about this feature for a second (happened to me constantly when
I just wanted to pull a window to a side, for example to read
something on a window below it).

Disadvantages would be:
- New users probably won't discover this without *reading the fine
manual*.
- It's a little bit less convenient because you need to press an extra
key while moving the window.


From Rui Miguel Seabra 2002-08-13 10:15 -------

Cof Cof 
HP said:
: I still think edge flipping is inferior to:
: - "Send to Workspace N" window menu item
: - Alt+space to get window menu, N to send to that space

Both are less intuitive than dragging a window (specially if it's to
the next space).

: - Pick up window with mouse, flip workspaces with keyboard, 
:   drop window

Wow, two hands coordination! I'm sure the HIG likes this option.

: - Move the window in the pager

Smaller area to manouver in comparison to dragging the window between
adjacent workareas.

: - Fixed "send to space N" bindings such as Alt+Ctrl+F3 to 
:   send to space 3, or something


: The edge flipping:
: - confuses people

 it ONLY confuses people who DO NOT KNOW of the feature and it is only
unexpected to those who are not taught of it AND came from 1 workspace
only desktops (like Windows and MacOS).

 When I first encountered this feature I had come from the world of
MacOS. The very first time I accidently used it, I got confused. I
moved the mouse more carefully to see how it worked and fell in love
almost immediately as I understood the behaviour.
 My girlfriend comes from Windows... I taught her, and she likes it
much more than using the pager (when moving from and to adjacent
workspaces -- for larger distances she takes advantage of the pager).

: - breaks slamming window to the edge of the screen

Well, then you are probably using a bad window manager since edge-flip
 only happens when the mouse reaches the edge, not the window. So you
just alt+mouse1-drag untill the window glues to the edge.

: - only works for adjacent spaces

Yes, that's the whole idea. I would certainly find it confusing if
edge-flipping brought me not to the adjacent space but to the next one.

Actually, edge-flip's importance is specially due (but not limited) to
moving between adjacent spaces.

Daniel Borgmann said:
: So why not do edge flipping when holding down another key
: like ALT? 
 
: Advantages would be: 
: - It never happens accidently to new users who don't have a clue 
:   what it is.

It doesn't happen accidently to new users who don't have a clue if
it's off by default, and activated, say, with gconf.

: - It also never happens accidently to experienced users who just
:   forgot about this feature for a second (happened to me constantly 
:   when I just wanted to pull a window to a side, for example to read
:   something on a window below it).

Even though this happens very rarely, a better way to do what you want
is: C-right-click1 makes window raise/unraise on my sawfish configuration.

: Disadvantages would be:
: - New users probably won't discover this without *reading the fine
manual*.

That's already happening in relation to some of the cool gnome
features, only the difference is that these features are not really in
the fine manual (unless you include the source code into the
definition of manual).

However, I still consider gtk2/gnome2 a huge forward step.