GNOME Bugzilla – Bug 792952
Default settings for saving metadata in exported files
Last modified: 2018-03-24 21:04:03 UTC
Created attachment 367522 [details] Patch to cause metadata to be exported by default A recent change was to extend the preferences dialog to enable/disable the saving of EXIF, XMP and IPTC metadata in exported files. I think that this is a good and useful change but question the default settings - which are not to save any of the three metadata types. Many users of the next released version of GIMP will be unaware of this change and therefore unaware that the metadata is no longer being exported. I think that this will result in many complaints. If the defaults are changed to preserve the metadata the users who are unaware of the change will be unaffected since GIMP will still behave as it does now. The users who want to strip the metadata will (probably) become aware of the change and will be happy that the option has been provided. Result should be happy users all round. It is a simple matter to remove metadata from files (I believe that Windows itself offers the facility for example) but putting the metadata back into files could be difficult - or even impossible if the original files have been deleted or overwritten. Changing the default settings will mean that users have to opt-in to dumping the data - the data will not be lost unintentionally. I have attached a diff file to change the FALSE settings for these three options to TRUE.
Yeah we know, this was on purpose though there is discussion about this. See from bug 790552, comment 15. We have simply not decided yet. The idea behind my decision to *NOT* save metadata by default is that this is irresponsible data leak. I have actually a similar reasonning as you but on the other side ;-) -> Basically by default, people don't leak their metadata (which can have private info like name, GPS position, etc.) without even realizing it (for all the people who don't care about metadata, or maybe don't even know it exists, they would just never check the contents of what their phone/camera/other have added). As for the people who care about metadata and definitily want it in, they know about it (by definition, since they care), therefore they would know how to find the feature, how to read and edit them. Basically they control their metadata workflow from the start since they care. For these people, it is easy to just switch the feature on by default.
(In reply to Jehan from comment #1) > Yeah we know, this was on purpose though there is discussion about this. > See from bug 790552, comment 15. We have simply not decided yet. > > The idea behind my decision to *NOT* save metadata by default is that this > is irresponsible data leak. > > I have actually a similar reasonning as you but on the other side ;-) -> > > Basically by default, people don't leak their metadata (which can have > private info like name, GPS position, etc.) without even realizing it (for > all the people who don't care about metadata, or maybe don't even know it > exists, they would just never check the contents of what their > phone/camera/other have added). > > As for the people who care about metadata and definitily want it in, they > know about it (by definition, since they care), therefore they would know > how to find the feature, how to read and edit them. Basically they control > their metadata workflow from the start since they care. For these people, it > is easy to just switch the feature on by default. Apologies - the resolved bug didn't show when I searched. I agree that there are two sides to this argument but I still feel that there will be many cries of anguish when people realise that they have lost the data. Setting GIMP to prevent the leaking of metadata will be a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of metadata that is uploaded to social media sites unintentionally from mobiles. It may not be easy to implement but one solution would be to save the metadata by default but display a warning message (with a 'don't show this message again' option) when an image is saved with metadata. That way nobody would lose metadata unintentionally and those who were saving it without knowing would be prompted to disable the export of the data.
Hmm, given: * That GIMP-2.8 does export some (not all) of the original image metadata by default . . . * That *seeing* whether metadata is or isn't being exported for GIMP-2.8 (and so far for GIMP-2.9/2.10) involves the user actually opening the "Advanced" drop-down for the various image export dialogs before the user can *see* the option to enable/disable exporting metadata for the particular image . . . . . . then maybe exporting metadata using GIMP-2.9/2.10 really shouldn't be disabled by default, as this does entail a risk of the loss of metadata, that perhaps the user really does want to keep. What's hidden behind the "Advanced" tab is *not* "advanced" and imho should *not* be hidden from the user "by default" when the user is exporting an image file. If these "hidden options" were made visible by default for GIMP-2.10 - in which case the user would automatically be able to see whether metadata is or isn't being exported for the particular image - then I would recommend *not* exporting metadata by default, and then the user could make a change in Preferences if they wanted to. But if the "hidden options" behind the "Advanced" drop-down are kept hidden by default (oh, please, please, please just remove the Advanced drop-down - or at least provide an option to have the Advanced drop-down be automatically open instead of automatically closed, and have "automatically open" be the default), then I would reluctantly recommend that metadata should indeed be exported by default. Exporting metadata by default - when the relevant information is hidden behind the by-default closed "Advanced" drop-down - means leaving the user caught between "totally unaware that sensitive information might be unintentionally leaked" and "potential for complete loss of metadata that the user might want to keep".
(In reply to Elle Stone from comment #3) > Exporting metadata by default - when the relevant information is hidden > behind the by-default closed "Advanced" drop-down - means leaving the user > caught between "totally unaware that sensitive information might be > unintentionally leaked" and "potential for complete loss of metadata that > the user might want to keep". Well, I should have written "Exporting or not exporting metadata by default" . . . but hopefully what I meant is clear - results are potentially bad for the user either way, when what is being done with the metadata is hidden behind a "closed by default" Advanced drop-down menu.
I don't know. I don't really want to spend more time on this before 2.10 personally (after, maybe, why not). I will leave the last word to Mitch (who was rather agreeing with you, last we discussed) so we may default to your position in the end. I don't know. Anyway this is my stance, and I believe it is the most appropriate. ;P In particular, the only risky cases are when people *overwrite* their original images (like load an image straight from camera, then export over it), which is *sometimes* a valid use case for things you don't care much about. I do it too sometimes, for instance I take a screenshot, then crop it or add some arrows here and there to show specific stuff and would overwrite the file because I really don't care about the original. And in such use case, getting rid of metadata (if the OS added any in the file) is even what I want. But *most of the time*, this is not a case a professional graphics tool should promote for more advanced usage. If you are doing big pro work where you care about your original sanity… **just never overwrite your original, ever!** If you do, you lose something. This is basic logics. And you should save your work as a XCF (which always has the metadata in it by the way, so you can always re-export later with metadata if you forgot the first time). Really this is how I see the whole thing. Though I won't die if in the end we go the other way for 2.10, and if everyone is not of my point of view. ;-) Also we may still revert to another default with a more clever choice dialog for future version (we had been discussing possibility of a "first start" dialog which shows new features of a given version, etc. This kind of "security" parameters could typically be shown there to give it some visibility IMO; but that's not for 2.10).
(In reply to Elle Stone from comment #3) > Exporting metadata by default - when the relevant information is hidden > behind the by-default closed "Advanced" drop-down - means leaving the user > caught between "totally unaware that sensitive information might be > unintentionally leaked" and "potential for complete loss of metadata that > the user might want to keep". For everyone of you who are talking about "loss of metadata", I just want to remind the metadata are never lost in the XCF. They are always imported and stay there (unless you deleted them yourself with the metadata editor). Moreover they are still in the original as well unless you overwrite it, which — as I said above — is not recommended (whatever your software!) unless you actually don't care about your original. So as long as you don't do a workflow intentionally losing data (i.e. with overwrite), you never lose the metadata.
P.S.: by the way, Elle, your comments are a bit off-topic. ;-) I know you care about these (since it's not the first time you write this) but let's have this discussion in a dedicated bug report. I propose you open a bug report dedicated to this simple issue you are mentionning, i.e. "Should metadata really be in an Advanced tab?". The topic of the current bug report is only about the right default for saving metadata or not. Let's stick to this issue only here and not add other issues which will make the report non-understandable in the end. Thanks!
Created attachment 367528 [details] Screenshot of export dialogs without the "Advanced" drop-down (In reply to Jehan from comment #6) > (In reply to Elle Stone from comment #3) > > Exporting metadata by default - when the relevant information is hidden > > behind the by-default closed "Advanced" drop-down - means leaving the user > > caught between "totally unaware that sensitive information might be > > unintentionally leaked" and "potential for complete loss of metadata that > > the user might want to keep". > > For everyone of you who are talking about "loss of metadata", I just want to > remind the metadata are never lost in the XCF. They are always imported and > stay there (unless you deleted them yourself with the metadata editor). > > Moreover they are still in the original as well unless you overwrite it, > which — as I said above — is not recommended (whatever your software!) > unless you actually don't care about your original. > > So as long as you don't do a workflow intentionally losing data (i.e. with > overwrite), you never lose the metadata. Well, I totally agree that the best thing to do is not overwrite the original, and like yourself about the only time I do overwrite the original is when making and saving screenshots. But some people do overwrite jpegs and tiffs and such, as a matter of course. Either way, setting a default to write or not write metadata is not any kind of guarantee that somehow the default gets overwritten. Sometimes "stuff happens" and the user's settings in Preferences get overwritten. Sometimes the user might have just been experimenting, and then forgot to change things back. Personally I click to open Advanced drop-down menu on the Export dialogs every single time I export an image, specifically to make sure the metadata boxes aren't checked, and also for jpegs to check the compression settings and such - none of this is "Advanced" - it's all "Basic". For my "CCE" version of GIMP I modified the code to get rid of these "Advanced" drop-downs, just to eliminate "one more click" that had to be done to get an image exported to disk. If there is an interest in removing this drop-down for default GIMP 2.10, I could try to write a similar patch. The attached png shows what the dialogs look like without the Advanced drop-down.
(In reply to Jehan from comment #7) > P.S.: by the way, Elle, your comments are a bit off-topic. ;-) > > I know you care about these (since it's not the first time you write this) > but let's have this discussion in a dedicated bug report. I propose you open > a bug report dedicated to this simple issue you are mentionning, i.e. > "Should metadata really be in an Advanced tab?". > The topic of the current bug report is only about the right default for > saving metadata or not. Let's stick to this issue only here and not add > other issues which will make the report non-understandable in the end. > Thanks! Oh, sorry! I submitted my last comment before I saw your comment. However, the main reason I keep talking about the Advanced drop-down (one-track mind, yes, I know! :) ) is precisely to be able to keep track of whether/what metadata is being exported, image by image, export by export. The other reason has to do with checking the jpeg settings, but the actual core "why does Elle care about this" has to do with metadata.
This was fixed in git, sorry we forgot about your patch! commit 4580285503d3271f5b86770bab6af905a5d02cfc Author: Jehan <jehan@girinstud.io> Date: Thu Mar 22 15:36:21 2018 +0100 app, NEWS: metadata export settings are now ON by default. After many discussions, it has been decided to export the metadata by default since it seems to be what many people would expect and they would consider they "lost" metadata (especially if they overwrite their original). I don't entirely agree since privacy (particularly if you are not aware of metadata and information they may contain) is also an issue but not many seem to agree with me. So here it is! All metadata now exported as a default! NEWS | 6 +++--- app/config/gimpcoreconfig.c | 6 +++--- 2 files changed, 6 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)