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Bug 767317 - Reenabling or waking from suspend nm-applet fails
Reenabling or waking from suspend nm-applet fails
Status: RESOLVED OBSOLETE
Product: NetworkManager
Classification: Platform
Component: nm-applet
1.2.x
Other Linux
: Normal normal
: ---
Assigned To: NetworkManager maintainer(s)
NetworkManager maintainer(s)
: 767316 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
 
Reported: 2016-06-07 07:04 UTC by mote
Modified: 2020-11-12 14:34 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: ---


Attachments
Screenshot of failed icon. (85.40 KB, image/jpeg)
2016-06-07 07:11 UTC, mote
  Details
bluetooth affected by nm bug (30.66 KB, image/png)
2016-06-23 17:39 UTC, Henry J. Douglas
  Details
Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41 (297.42 KB, text/plain)
2016-11-08 23:24 UTC, sander.jonkers
  Details
debug-status-icon.patch (3.10 KB, patch)
2016-11-09 09:05 UTC, Beniamino Galvani
none Details | Review
Check the prefix 'wlan' for WiFi devices. (1006 bytes, patch)
2016-11-30 04:38 UTC, Shih-Yuan Lee (FourDollars)
none Details | Review
Debug output from patch in #23 (10.15 KB, text/plain)
2017-07-25 14:12 UTC, Dave Chiluk
  Details
nmcli connection show, and nm d show (11.37 KB, text/plain)
2017-07-25 14:27 UTC, Dave Chiluk
  Details
Screenshot of status of applet (21.07 KB, image/jpeg)
2017-07-25 14:28 UTC, Dave Chiluk
  Details

Description mote 2016-06-07 07:04:23 UTC
There's 10 users having reported this bug on launchpad Bug #1589401
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1589401
We have been advised to report the bug here ?

* * * * * * * * *

Reenabling or waking from suspend nm-applet fails to show correct icon in network manager applet in the panel. Instead of showing wiFi beam it shows up/down arrows of ehternet connection. Also list if Wifi AP's are missing. Actual Wifi connecting are not affected and continues to work despite wrong information from nm-applet   
Killing nm-applet and restarting it solves it.

 * * * * * 
To reproduce.

1. Connect to wifi AP, get 'beam' icon in nm-applet
2. Suspund laptop.
3. wake up from suspend, observe that 'wifi beam' icon and Wifi list are missing from nm-applet.
4 execute 'killall nm-applet' and restarting 'nm-applet', will show Wifi connection in the panel again.

 * * * * * 

Linux Ubuntu1604-L450 4.4.0-22-generic #40-Ubuntu SMP Thu May 12 22:03:46 UTC 2016 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

network-manager:
  Installed: 1.2.0-0ubuntu0.16.04.2
  Candidate: 1.2.0-0ubuntu0.16.04.2
  Version table:
 *** 1.2.0-0ubuntu0.16.04.2 500
        500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu xenial-updates/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     1.1.93-0ubuntu4 500
        500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu xenial/main amd64 Packages

00:19.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation Ethernet Connection (3) I218-V (rev 03)
04:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7265 (rev 59)
Comment 1 mote 2016-06-07 07:11:13 UTC
Created attachment 329244 [details]
Screenshot of failed icon.
Comment 2 Thomas Haller 2016-06-07 08:00:47 UTC
*** Bug 767316 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 3 Henry J. Douglas 2016-06-11 18:44:39 UTC
Any updates on this? I would like to know if connection drops every 5 ~ 15 minutes (more often when I'm AFK for a few seconds), along with the reported issues, are related to this same bug. Network-manager is currently unreliable here even for the simple purpose of web browsing. I must run "sudo systemctl restart network-manager" ALL THE TIME, really.
Comment 4 Beniamino Galvani 2016-06-12 07:09:22 UTC
(In reply to Henry J. Douglas from comment #3)
> Any updates on this? I would like to know if connection drops every 5 ~ 15
> minutes (more often when I'm AFK for a few seconds), along with the reported
> issues, are related to this same bug.

It seems unlikely to me, connection drops are a problem in NM core, this bug is about the applet showing wrong information after a suspend.

> Network-manager is currently
> unreliable here even for the simple purpose of web browsing. I must run
> "sudo systemctl restart network-manager" ALL THE TIME, really.

Can you please file a separate bug and attach trace logs? To increase logging level, set 'level=TRACE' in the [logging] section of /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf and restart the service. Then attach the output of 'journalctl -u NetworkManager -b'. Please also specify the NM version. Thanks!
Comment 5 mote 2016-06-12 14:07:48 UTC
There are no loss of WiFi connection, it's only nm-applet (icon) that's failing, as show in the attached picture. Network-manager still has and shows the connection.
Comment 6 Henry J. Douglas 2016-06-12 22:16:03 UTC
Thanks! I'll create a bug report if that issue persists. However, I think I got the applet to show the correct status (and fixed the connection drops).

I've upgraded my TP-Link wireless router's firmware today (4 years outdated), configured it again, connected through another ISP and network-manager sucessfully managed the connection after several suspend/reboot (no more ethernet arrows and connection is stable). If someone is able to confirm this (checking/upgrading wireless router), please give it a try.

My wireless card is Intel Wireless 3160.
Comment 7 TT Mooney 2016-06-17 12:28:39 UTC
I see the same problem when coming out of suspend:

Ubuntu 16.04 Unity, Dell XPS 13 9333 (Sputnik 3), Intel Wireless 7260.
Ubuntu 16.04 Unity, Lenovo Thinkpad X220, Intel Wireless 6205.

If I restart the network-manager service, it recovers until the next suspend:

sudo systemctl restart network-manager.service

On boot, the systems do show a list of wireless networks, but with the Ethernet connected icon. They are unable to join any WiFi network due to 'Insufficient privileges' and do not automatically join known networks. Once the user is logged in the applet works, until it is put into, and recovers from, suspend.

This does not depend on the AP in use, and was not an error under the previous Ubuntu LTS release.
Comment 8 mote 2016-06-20 15:32:04 UTC
We are 30 people with this bug on launchpad now.
Comment 9 Henry J. Douglas 2016-06-21 01:48:54 UTC
For some reason, if I use Ubuntu (Unity), the issue is gone (different packages, maybe?). Ubuntu MATE, Xubuntu and others will bump into this. That is why I made comments reporting that it was working, but it was just on Ubuntu.

Now I'll just wait.
Comment 10 Henry J. Douglas 2016-06-23 17:39:20 UTC
Created attachment 330279 [details]
bluetooth affected by nm bug

Bluetooth applet will no longer display the "make visible" option after NetworkManager goes dark (after suspend).
Comment 11 Henry J. Douglas 2016-06-23 19:02:12 UTC
Running "sudo systemctl restart bluetooth" restores it to normal.
Comment 12 Beniamino Galvani 2016-07-08 08:02:33 UTC
(In reply to mote from comment #8)
> We are 30 people with this bug on launchpad now.

We need some more information to debug this problem:

 - if you start the applet from a terminal and perform a
   suspend/resume cycle, do you see any message when nm-applet
   fails?

 - since downstream has some patches applied, can you build the applet
   from the upstream repository [1] or from the distro package but
   without patches and confirm the problem still happens?

Thanks.

[1] https://git.gnome.org/browse/network-manager-applet
Comment 13 mote 2016-07-09 09:48:32 UTC
Running nm-applet from terminal and suspend/wakeup the laptop gives this output

----------

mads@Ubuntu1604-L450:~$ killall nm-applet
mads@Ubuntu1604-L450:~$ nm-applet

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed

(nm-applet:22940): nm-applet-CRITICAL **: get_menu_item_for_ap: assertion 'dup_data.hash != NULL' failed


----------


I'm not skilled enough to do the building of the applet, but i will get the answer from some of the others on launchpad and return it here.
It might take some time i'm on vacation.
Comment 14 Joakim Koed 2016-07-14 09:15:30 UTC
I'll try to build it now without any patches, and report back :)
Comment 15 Joakim Koed 2016-07-14 12:57:06 UTC
Build failed :/ Not sure why, but I tried with all the new patches from https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/1.2.0-0ubuntu0.16.04.3 + dependencies (libnm-glib-vpn1, libnm-glib4, libnm-util2, libnm0) cant reproduce anymore.
Comment 16 Jiri Klimes 2016-07-18 14:12:39 UTC
I can't see a problem with nm-applet icon neither on Arch Linux nor Fedora.
As far as I know, Ubuntu uses its own patches that may cause the problem.
Comment 17 mote 2016-07-26 12:24:40 UTC
There's some development on the bug on launchpad.
I'll report back soon.
Comment 18 b81 2016-11-06 09:21:54 UTC
(In reply to Jiri Klimes from comment #16)
> I can't see a problem with nm-applet icon neither on Arch Linux nor Fedora.
> As far as I know, Ubuntu uses its own patches that may cause the problem.

I have this issue with nm-applet and XFCE on Arch Linux since several weeks, so it's not limited to Ubuntu.
Comment 19 Beniamino Galvani 2016-11-08 13:12:24 UTC
(In reply to b81 from comment #18)
> (In reply to Jiri Klimes from comment #16)
> > I can't see a problem with nm-applet icon neither on Arch Linux nor Fedora.
> > As far as I know, Ubuntu uses its own patches that may cause the problem.
> 
> I have this issue with nm-applet and XFCE on Arch Linux since several weeks,
> so it's not limited to Ubuntu.

It would be useful to have also NM logs. Would you please set:

  [logging]
  level=TRACE

in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf, restart the NM service, reproduce the issue and then attach the journal log ('journalctl -u NetworkManager -b')? Thanks!
Comment 20 mote 2016-11-08 14:27:13 UTC
I will get feedback from launchpad as well on this as well.
Comment 21 sander.jonkers 2016-11-08 23:22:24 UTC
I did as Beniamino asked, then did a reboot, did a suspend/resume (arrows
appeared), and the logging is 1997 lines long. I will include as an attachment.

Please note: to protect my privacy, I changed the IPv6 address range in the logging.

Ubuntu 16.10.
Comment 22 sander.jonkers 2016-11-08 23:24:14 UTC
Created attachment 339356 [details]
Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41

Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41
Comment 23 Beniamino Galvani 2016-11-09 09:05:05 UTC
Created attachment 339368 [details] [review]
debug-status-icon.patch

(In reply to sander.jonkers from comment #22)
> Created attachment 339356 [details]
> Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41
> 
> Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41

Everything looks fine on NM side. Does anybody have the chance to build the applet with the following patch, run it from the terminal and attach the output after the issue happens? (please also click on the icon afterwards). The patch should apply cleanly on top of the Ubuntu 16.04 version.
Comment 24 Shih-Yuan Lee (FourDollars) 2016-11-30 04:38:18 UTC
Created attachment 341018 [details] [review]
Check the prefix 'wlan' for WiFi devices.

Hi,

This is my proposed fix for this issue.
I didn't test it yet because I can not reduplicate this issue now.
I am seeking people to confirm if this patch works or not.

Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 kernel: ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0 wlp1s0: renamed from wlan0
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <trace> [1480332156.5568] platform-linux: event-notification: NEWLINK, seq 0: 2: wlan0 <DOWN;broadcast,multicast> mtu 1500 arp 1 ethernet? not-init addrgenmode eui64 addr 40:49:0F:8A:E5:97
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <debug> [1480332156.5568] platform: signal: link   added: 2: wlan0 <DOWN;broadcast,multicast> mtu 1500 arp 1 ethernet? not-init addrgenmode eui64 addr 40:49:0F:8A:E5:97 driver unknown
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <warn>  [1480332156.5569] device (wlan0): failed to find device 2 'wlan0' with udev
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <info>  [1480332156.5569] device (wlan0): driver '(null)' does not support carrier detection.
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <debug> [1480332156.5569] device[0xab4b80] (wlan0): constructed (NMDeviceEthernet)
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <debug> [1480332156.5569] device[0xab4b80] (wlan0): start setup of NMDeviceEthernet, kernel ifindex 2
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <debug> [1480332156.5570] platform-linux: error reading /sys/class/net/wlan0/phys_port_id: Failed to open file '/sys/class/net/wlan0/phys_port_id': No such file or directory
Nov 28 06:22:36 u-Precision-5520 NetworkManager[772]: <debug> [1480332156.5570] platform-linux: error reading /sys/class/net/wlan0/dev_id: Failed to open file '/sys/class/net/wlan0/dev_id': No such file or directory
Comment 25 mirh 2016-11-30 08:35:26 UTC
I'm not really sure my problem is this, bug 571524 or bug 774268.
Also, I'm on arch and not on ubuntu. 

But since I switched to latest git (was 1.4.2, and for both nm and applet) icon has been rock solidly steady.
Comment 26 Beniamino Galvani 2016-12-05 13:31:54 UTC
(In reply to Shih-Yuan Lee (FourDollars) from comment #24)
> Created attachment 341018 [details] [review] [review]
> Check the prefix 'wlan' for WiFi devices.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This is my proposed fix for this issue.

I don't think this patch fixes the same issue reported in this bugzilla. Logs in comment 22 indicate that NM correctly detects the wifi interface type and also successfully activate a connection on it, but according to the comments, nm-applet believes an ethernet connection is active. So the fix should be in the applet, while NM is behaving correctly.

The race condition fixed by your patch is discussed in bug 775613.
Comment 27 Jonas Camillus Jeppesen 2016-12-07 15:48:15 UTC
I'm on Arch ('pacman -Syu' on 2016-12-07) and experiencing something similar with NetworkManager 1.4.2 and nm-applet 1.4.2. 

If the only available wifi network is set to "Store the password only for this user" (i.e. it is stored in Gnome Keyring) nm-applet icon will flash once indicating it is trying to connect but then it will go to its unconnected icon and the list of wifi networks will be empty. The connection is established though, verify with ping or similar.

If I change the wifi network to "Store the password for all users" and reboot the problem is gone. The nm-applet icon correctly appears as connecting, then as connected, and the list of wifi networks is populated as it should be.

The problem persist with NM and nm-applet version 1.2.2, but it disappears with latest git version (NM 1.5.2, and nm-applet 1.4.3).

Definetly also just an nm-applet problem, the since NM is correctly establishing connection. I have no idea which logs to get to back this up, but if anyone is interested and let me know which I'll get them!
Comment 28 Jay 2017-01-19 15:38:38 UTC
I have this issue on Ubuntu MATE. The easiest work around for me is to run the following command whenever this bug presents itself:

sudo iwlist <interface> scan

So it appears to me that the issue is that a rescan isn't always called when a device resumes from suspend. I'm not knowledgeable on how Network Manager is developed, but I would think if it simply calls the rescan, that would solve it.
Comment 29 Daniel J Blueman 2017-03-08 07:02:10 UTC
When resuming from suspend and hitting this issue, the networkmanager logs show:

NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488932351.8820] manager: wake requested (sleeping: yes  enabled: yes)
NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488932351.8821] manager: waking up...
NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488932351.8823] device (wlp58s0): state change: unmanaged -> unavailable (reason 'managed') [10 20 2]
NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488932354.2067] manager: NetworkManager state is now CONNECTED_LOCAL
NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488932354.2946] device (wlp58s0): supplicant interface state: starting -> ready
NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488932354.2948] device (wlp58s0): state change: unavailable -> disconnected (reason 'supplicant-available') [20 30 42]

when the issue doesn't occur, we also see:

NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488955550.0568] device (wlp58s0): supplicant interface state: ready -> inactive
NetworkManager[773]: <info>  [1488955550.0888] policy: auto-activating connection 'testAP'

but these are missing when the issue occurs!
Comment 30 mirh 2017-03-08 18:57:48 UTC
Did you try nm 1.6.2 and nm-applet 1.4.4?
Comment 31 Beniamino Galvani 2017-03-10 09:54:59 UTC
(In reply to Jay from comment #28)
> I have this issue on Ubuntu MATE. The easiest work around for me is to run
> the following command whenever this bug presents itself:
> 
> sudo iwlist <interface> scan
> 
> So it appears to me that the issue is that a rescan isn't always called when
> a device resumes from suspend. I'm not knowledgeable on how Network Manager
> is developed, but I would think if it simply calls the rescan, that would
> solve it.

As reported in previous comments, NM already rescans and activates the Wi-Fi connection after the resume, so the problem seems to be in the applet. If you do a 'nmcli connection' from the terminal you should see that the wireless interface is active and there is connectivity.

Can anybody experiencing the issue please try to recompile the applet with the patch in comment 23 and attach the output?
Comment 32 James Strandboge 2017-03-10 16:30:55 UTC
I noticed in comment 25 that nm-applet 1.4.2 was affected, but 1.4.3 was not. I then saw that comment 25 was made on 11/30. I then looked at the commits since 1.4.2 up to 11/30 and came across: https://git.gnome.org/browse/network-manager-applet/commit/?id=c7533cfcd9c761a152a66f608808187df3155521

I will be trying this locally against Ubuntu 16.04 LTS' 1.2.6 package, but perhaps others want to try on their affected versions?
Comment 33 James Strandboge 2017-06-08 13:11:52 UTC
Note that in Ubuntu, 1.2.6-0ubuntu0.16.04.3 backported this git commit. https://launchpadlibrarian.net/320928941/network-manager-applet_1.2.6-0ubuntu0.16.04.2_1.2.6-0ubuntu0.16.04.3.diff.gz
Comment 34 Dave Chiluk 2017-07-24 15:09:08 UTC
(In reply to Beniamino Galvani from comment #23)
> Created attachment 339368 [details] [review] [review]
> debug-status-icon.patch
> 
> (In reply to sander.jonkers from comment #22)
> > Created attachment 339356 [details]
> > Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41
> > 
> > Output of "journalctl -u NetworkManager -b", with suspend around 23:41
> 
> Everything looks fine on NM side. Does anybody have the chance to build the
> applet with the following patch, run it from the terminal and attach the
> output after the issue happens? (please also click on the icon afterwards).
> The patch should apply cleanly on top of the Ubuntu 16.04 version.

@Beniamino Galvani, 

I have built Network-manager-applet from the Ubuntu Archives version 1.2.6-0ubuntu0.16.04.3 with your debug output patch from Comment 23 debug-status-icon.patch.  I'm still seeing the issue here.  I can be pretty proactive in testing changes for this.  Let me know if you find anything or need additional debugging.

@James Strandboge,  This is most definitely not fixed by the wifi switch changes in Ubuntu.
Comment 35 Dave Chiluk 2017-07-24 15:12:51 UTC
@Beniamino, unfortunately it doesn't look like I'm allowed to upload files to bugzilla.gnome.org, so here's a pastebin.  Can you give me upload permissions?

http://paste.ubuntu.com/25163049/
Comment 36 Beniamino Galvani 2017-07-25 14:08:01 UTC
(In reply to Dave Chiluk from comment #35)
> @Beniamino, unfortunately it doesn't look like I'm allowed to upload files
> to bugzilla.gnome.org, so here's a pastebin.  Can you give me upload
> permissions?

Strange, everybody should be able to add an attachment... Which error
message do you see?

(In reply to Dave Chiluk from comment #34)
> I have built Network-manager-applet from the Ubuntu Archives version
> 1.2.6-0ubuntu0.16.04.3 with your debug output patch from Comment 23
> debug-status-icon.patch.  I'm still seeing the issue here.  I can be pretty
> proactive in testing changes for this.  Let me know if you find anything or
> need additional debugging.

The log shows that the device is stuck in state 90 (secondaries),
which means that it's waiting for another (VPN) connection to start.

Do you actually have a secondary set for the the WiFi connection? What
is the output of 'nmcli connection show <wifi-connection-name>'? And
also, the output of 'nmcli device show wlp2s0' after the wake?
Comment 37 Dave Chiluk 2017-07-25 14:12:48 UTC
Created attachment 356361 [details]
Debug output from patch in #23
Comment 38 Dave Chiluk 2017-07-25 14:27:03 UTC
Created attachment 356362 [details]
nmcli connection show, and nm d show

I've attached the requested output.
Comment 39 Dave Chiluk 2017-07-25 14:28:27 UTC
Created attachment 356363 [details]
Screenshot of status of applet

Here's a screenshot showing the status of the applet when it gets into this weird state.  Please forgive the transparency, as hitting prntscrn makes the menu start to disappear.
Comment 40 Jonas Camillus Jeppesen 2017-07-26 09:43:41 UTC
I have forgotten how annoying it can be / was / is to use those non-rolling-release distributions. Network Manager (library and applet) is in version 1.8 now, version 1.9 tags existing in the repos.

The problem existed for me in version 1.4.2 in December 2016, but it has been gone for quite some time, and it is definitely gone in version 1.8.2.
Comment 41 Dave Chiluk 2017-07-26 17:03:53 UTC
Thanks @Jonas, but I'm trying to find the exact commit or group of commits that fixes this so that I can push this change back into Ubuntu.
Comment 42 Jonas Camillus Jeppesen 2017-07-26 20:27:01 UTC
@Dave, yes I know, a noble undertaking! I didn't mean to degrade your effort, I literally had just forgotten how it was like to be stuck with the one version of something which contain a bug. Also it might be useful for others, coming here as a result of searching, to know that the bug is not there in newer versions.
Comment 43 André Klapper 2020-11-12 14:34:33 UTC
bugzilla.gnome.org is being shut down in favor of a GitLab instance. 
We are closing all old bug reports and feature requests in GNOME Bugzilla which have not seen updates for a long time.

If you still use NetworkManager and if you still see this bug / want this feature in a recent and supported version of NetworkManager, then please feel free to report it at https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/-/issues/

Thank you for creating this report and we are sorry it could not be implemented (workforce and time is unfortunately limited).