s|not for Taoists ones|not just for Taoists ones|

AFAIK Ying Yang is a part of concept of Chinese folk religion [0], therefore it lacks of neutrality, i suggest put GIMP mascot (Wilber) or another neutral symbol replacement to solve this issue.

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_folk_religion#Yin_and_yang.E2.80.94gui_and_shen

It's Chinese, but not properly Taoist-only as far as I understood. Though I'm definitely not a specialist.
The designer who proposed the Yin and Yong icon assumed so as well (see bug 759673, comment 22.
Inkscape uses a fleur-de-lys (see bug 759673, comment 36), but this is also quite a loaded symbol. I actually prefer the Yin-Yang to this one, if I am to choose between these 2.

It has been actually quite challenging to represent the concept of "icons" in an icon!
Using Wilber, which is GIMP icon, as an icon representing icons is an interesting idea. But I would use the usual Wilber, because nobody would grasp the meaning. Maybe 2 Wilber-s next to each others to represent a multitude?

And the letter "A" came to us through Judaism but has become considered religiously neutral.

There's no easy way to represent icons, as Jehan notes, so maybe people who have a problem with the yin-yang symbol can suggest something that works for them?

Maybe an heraldic shield???

(In reply to Jehan from comment #3)
> It's Chinese, but not properly Taoist-only as far as I understood. Though
> I'm definitely not a specialist.
> The designer who proposed the Yin and Yong icon assumed so as well (see bug
> 759673, comment 22.
> Inkscape uses a fleur-de-lys (see bug 759673, comment 36), but this is also
> quite a loaded symbol. I actually prefer the Yin-Yang to this one, if I am
> to choose between these 2.
> 
> It has been actually quite challenging to represent the concept of "icons"
> in an icon!
> Using Wilber, which is GIMP icon, as an icon representing icons is an
> interesting idea. But I would use the usual Wilber, because nobody would
> grasp the meaning. Maybe 2 Wilber-s next to each others to represent a
> multitude?

i suggest an "i" letter with circle shape (or logotype silhouette) as background to represent as icon.

(In reply to liam from comment #4)
> And the letter "A" came to us through Judaism but has become considered
> religiously neutral.
> 
> There's no easy way to represent icons, as Jehan notes, so maybe people who
> have a problem with the yin-yang symbol can suggest something that works for
> them?
> 
> Maybe an heraldic shield???

ok, that one is good idea

> i suggest an "i" letter with circle shape (or logotype silhouette) as background to represent as icon.

Certainly not! GIMP is an international program and not all languages use a word starting with 'I' to mean an icon.
Though it may be acceptable for the text tool ('A' is still a letter whatever your language is, even though maybe not from your alphabet), it is not for another icon. And I want to avoid too many of these (even for the text tool, I would definitely prefer if it could show a letter from the localized alphabet).

For me, having a proper internationalized software (and not "English" centered) is more important than having a well known philosophical symbol as an icon.

I think the Wilber variant idea was more interesting. If you have other ideas, do not hesitate.

(In reply to Jehan from comment #6)
> > i suggest an "i" letter with circle shape (or logotype silhouette) as background to represent as icon.
> 
> Certainly not! GIMP is an international program and not all languages use a
> word starting with 'I' to mean an icon.
> Though it may be acceptable for the text tool ('A' is still a letter
> whatever your language is, even though maybe not from your alphabet), it is
> not for another icon. And I want to avoid too many of these (even for the
> text tool, I would definitely prefer if it could show a letter from the
> localized alphabet).
> 
> For me, having a proper internationalized software (and not "English"
> centered) is more important than having a well known philosophical symbol as
> an icon.
> 
> I think the Wilber variant idea was more interesting. If you have other
> ideas, do not hesitate.

i suggest others ideas:
1) three different icons in one like a theme icon
2) heraldic shield with an Wilber inside

(In reply to Márcio from comment #7)

> i suggest others ideas:
> 1) three different icons in one like a theme icon
> 2) heraldic shield with an Wilber inside


ad 1) the theme icon already reminds more to a pantone color guide than anything else. And pantone is not a good-company we should support(read here why http://freecolour.org). Should we really double such a symbol of a bad company in GIMP ? 

ad 2) And what kind of heraldic shield do you prefer?  the french one, the italian, polish, english ... , from what century ? 14., 15. 16 ... You remember heraldic is assigned to those aristocrats ( my familiy has a coat of arms: st.george killing the dragon ). Aristocrats are not beloved everywhere and in all times. 

You will never get ANY picture which is completly free of meanings, you can only try to minimize them and to have a 'harmless' indexicality and deixis.

My idea then: A picture by Jackson Pollock  (nobody will be affended, upset or whatever), one those great drippings I saw at Guggenheim in Venice seems to be free from nearly everything (except rights which have to be payed). 

http://pds9.egloos.com/pds/200805/23/58/c0029158_4835ad7cb4570.jpg

> 1) three different icons in one like a theme icon

And what are the "icons" in the one icon? The main problem was to find the contents, and your idea does not solve this problem at all.

> 2) heraldic shield with an Wilber inside

I didn't make a comment previously because I was sure it was a joke. Apparently it was not. How can you affirm that the Yin Yang symbol is wrong because biased toward a religion, and propose a heraldic shield instead? This is much more heavy of historic symbolism than Yin-Yang to me, but towards Western history and religions instead of Chinese's, that's all.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not against the idea. It is also a funny idea and I would not be against. But I just wanted to raise the inconsistency of the raised issue and the proposed solution.

> ad 1) the theme icon already reminds more to a pantone color guide than anything else.

Pantone are not the only company making solid color business. And while I agree that this is not the way to go, for the simple reason that solid colors should be a public and free standard, not proprietary trademark rights, the concept of solid colors is still very valid.
This said, if you have a better symbolic representation for the theme icon, you are the boss here!

> My idea then: A picture by Jackson Pollock

I don't think this can be squished in a small icon, with the reference known and the "icon" meaning understood (actually I don't see the relationship myself). ;-)
So I assume this is also a joke?

> except rights which have to be payed

Also obviously a definite problem. But since I still assume it to be a joke, whatever!

What about my previous idea of 2 Wilber-s with sligthly different styles? Or why not even using the Wilber from the color icon theme next to the Wilber from the symbolic icon theme into a single icon?
Also I don't think this can bother anyone!
Just an idea thrown in the air. :-)

Anyway, Klaus, I will let you decide. Unless Mitch or someone else has a strong opinion and wants to express it (from what he said on IRC, does not look like), I really don't care much. You are the boss of the icons and I let you make the finale choice of what to do here. :-)

> > Maybe an heraldic shield???
> ok, that one is good idea

Sorry about this misunderstand since i'm not a native english-speaker. When liam wrote about it, i didn't paid attention it was a joke and that heraldic shield represents a imperialist symbol [0].
It was my fault due my inattention because i'm maintaining, developing and resolving issues from Parabola GNU/Linux-libre distro at the same time and everytime for lack of time in my personal tasks.

I think is better open a consensus that could be decided by the community to make a appropriate logo for it. What do you think?

Regards,

Márcio Silva
Parabola GNU/Linux-libre hacker
https://www.parabola.nu/people/hackers/#coadde

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry

> I think is better open a consensus that could be decided by the community to make a appropriate logo for it. What do you think?

It can be done by opening an email thread on the gimp-gui mailing list (https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list) and see if you can gather some interest and propositions. Go ahead if you wish.

In the end though, we need contributions from Klaus, you or someone else if we are to change the icon though. Otherwise even if we all agree on a new idea, it will just sit here until a new design is drawn.

Klaus, from comment 8, being lately our main contributor for icon designs, he is kind of the de-facto icon boss for the time being. :-)

(In reply to Jehan from comment #11)
> > I think is better open a consensus that could be decided by the community to make a appropriate logo for it. What do you think?
> 
> It can be done by opening an email thread on the gimp-gui mailing list
> (https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list) and see if you can
> gather some interest and propositions. Go ahead if you wish.
> 

That would be good solution.

I'm not against a different icon icon. But, and thats a demand, it must be identicable as something which has to do with symbolic. As I've already written in another thread, if someone has a better idea than yin/yang: marvellous. I'll try to paint it then.

If it would be only a symbol of freemdom, such stuff would have been my favourite:
http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/92704a9d-f147-2e4c-e040-e00a18061681

Keed in mind: some things can't be painted as a 16x16 icon. Zeeshan Ali from Rygel (by gnome) once asked me if I can paint rygels chair, the program is named after rygel from farscape, I wasn't. I suggested a celtic knot surrended by different media instead.

I brought also the heraldic fleur de lys in a different thread into the game  for a single reason: Inkscape uses it as icon for symbols (in unofficial builds !) and I love to have same symbols for doing the same all over all programs.

With many icons the fact is as follows: They don't mean anything (or the wrong), but as they are widespread and longterm used users have learned: Okay when I press e.g the floppy disc icon, my work is saved.
The idea to use a floppy disc as symbol for saving is 1.) obsolete and 2.) it was always a joke, nothing as unsecure as a floppy for storing and saving. And have a look on painting-programs, many icons are derived (because common sense now for that action) from photoshop.

> My idea then: A picture by Jackson Pollock
> I don't think this can be squished in a small icon, with the reference known
> and the "icon" meaning understood (actually I don't see the relationship
> myself). ;-)
> So I assume this is also a joke?

A friend of mine  ( http://piamorgenthum.de/ ) once invited a school class to her atelier, and one the childs asked: Can you also paint and not only smear ? smearing I already can do by without you assistance ...

BTW.  If using yin/yang is a offending, one has to ban Darktable from desktop too. It also uses yin/yang. It's there a symbol for exposure and you can select if you want to have less Yin or more Yang.


> Pantone are not the only company making solid color business. And while I    > agree that this is not the way to go, for the simple reason that solid colors > should  be a public and free standard, not proprietary trademark rights, the >concept of solid colors is still very valid.
> This said, if you have a better symbolic representation for the theme icon,

I only wanted to raise the truth that starring long enough on icons you can see always something you don't like. ( a german writer E.T.A Hoffmann used to starr into fire long enough to get ideas for his writings, later he drowned in a puddle).

As the theme icon is already in use as 'theme icon' by others it would be stupid to make a different one. 
There is already enough ideosyncracy out there is no need to increase it. 

Klaus

My suggestion of a shield was intended not so much as a joke but as a concrete example to get a discussion going on what to use instead of what not to use. I was thinking of a blank shield, and it doesn't really matter what sort :-)

The icon identifies a button to press to change the theme of GIMP, to change the appearance. It's a preference setting.

Preferences - a gear wheel is common.
Appearance - an eye (perceiving) or, colour swatches

So, based on this rough analysis I'd suggest a gear wheel with one half inverted (diagonally), or a partial gear with two blocks of colour in a colour theme. It needs to be distinguished from the main Preferences icon.

(In reply to liam from comment #13)
 
> So, based on this rough analysis I'd suggest a gear wheel with one half
> inverted (diagonally), or a partial gear with two blocks of colour in a
> colour theme. It needs to be distinguished from the main Preferences icon.

We already have too many gears in GIMP. E.g. a solid gear is used in tools. Only a tourbillion is missing to have a complete swiss watch ;-)

have you read this article http://opensource-usability.blogspot.de/2015/12/libreoffice-user-interface-changes.html ?

It clearly shows that too many icons are not-explanatory therefore: cit.

'However, we found that most testers skipped the toolbar, and went right to menus.'

As soon somebody shows me a self-expressive idea how to visualize Icon or Symbol I will implement it (if desired even with a small cock-wheel to show that is a setting).

I've found now a possible candidate ...

One of the propositions of the astronomical symbol for the dwarf-planet Eris (it's the 10. 'planet' in our solar system).

The proposed symbol is a circle with a k within (circle = apple, K=kallisti, the superlative of beautiful, "the fairest", inscribed on Eris' apple of discord in Greek legend). 

It was not (and will not) accepted by the IAU (International Astronomical Union).

It's understandable only for a small minority of sophisticated connaisseurs.

> It's understandable only for a small minority of sophisticated connaisseurs.

I'd prefer something understandable by all if possible.

(In reply to Jehan from comment #16)

> I'd prefer something understandable by all if possible.

We're in a catch 22 here: either nobody complains (because nobody knows) or it is understandable, but then you cannot even count until 10 before somebody raises his finger.

My first idea was to use the astronomical earth symbol (circle with across in it). Oh holy shit it is also used by english church, as a symbol of inversed female, as ...

Why was the importance set as "critical"? This is all but critical. At worst "normal", if not "minor". I set to "normal".

IMHO this bug can be closed at all. Discussion continues here
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-gui-list/2016-January/msg00015.html

A consensus has been reached as of email https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-gui-list/2016-January/msg00021.html and followings.

Already committed in:

commit c599582c513395eb25ac541592f013ae0762c7c3
Author: klausstaedtler <staedtler-przyborski@web.de>
Date:   Wed Jan 13 21:22:06 2016 +0100

    Updated symbolic icon theme