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Bug 694912 - branding considerations
branding considerations
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Product: gnome-shell
Classification: Core
Component: general
unspecified
Other Linux
: Normal normal
: ---
Assigned To: gnome-shell-maint
gnome-shell-maint
3.8
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
 
Reported: 2013-03-01 04:00 UTC by Matthias Clasen
Modified: 2013-05-07 21:33 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: ---


Attachments
modalDialog: Always use a stack for the background (2.06 KB, patch)
2013-05-07 16:16 UTC, Florian Müllner
accepted-commit_now Details | Review
loginDialog: (Optionally) show logo below user list (2.49 KB, patch)
2013-05-07 16:16 UTC, Florian Müllner
reviewed Details | Review
loginDialog: Remove logo in upper left corner (2.81 KB, patch)
2013-05-07 16:17 UTC, Florian Müllner
committed Details | Review
modalDialog: Always use a stack for the background (2.13 KB, patch)
2013-05-07 17:46 UTC, Florian Müllner
committed Details | Review
loginDialog: (Optionally) show logo below user list (3.71 KB, patch)
2013-05-07 17:49 UTC, Florian Müllner
committed Details | Review
What it looks like ... (406.24 KB, image/png)
2013-05-07 18:08 UTC, Florian Müllner
  Details

Description Matthias Clasen 2013-03-01 04:00:11 UTC
We currently only allow distributors to put a tiny icon in the top right corner on the login screen. Here is what I have been asked to support:

- Make the icon in the top right corner of the login screen a bit bigger

- Allow a bigger icon above the user list (need to make work together with the banner text)

- Also allow an icon in the top right corner in the session (before 'Activities')
Comment 1 Florian Müllner 2013-03-01 04:03:00 UTC
(In reply to comment #0)
> - Allow a bigger icon above the user list

Isn't that what we used to do before moving the icon to the top right?
Comment 2 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-03-01 04:14:53 UTC
Yes, and isn't the icon in the top left corner?
Comment 3 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-03-01 04:15:52 UTC
(In reply to comment #0)
> - Also allow an icon in the top right corner in the session (before
> 'Activities')

There's an extension for this: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/358/activities-configurator/
Comment 4 Allan Day 2013-03-01 10:08:13 UTC
(In reply to comment #0)
> We currently only allow distributors to put a tiny icon in the top right corner
> on the login screen. Here is what I have been asked to support:
> 
> - Make the icon in the top right corner of the login screen a bit bigger

Do you mean top-left?

That would cause some nasty alignment issues. I've been a bit concerned about the icon as it is, and have been thinking that having a configurable text string coild look better.

> - Allow a bigger icon above the user list (need to make work together with the
> banner text)

I wasn't actually aware that we do this. What size do we currently allow? Is there a way to test it?

> - Also allow an icon in the top right corner in the session (before
> 'Activities')

Again - you mean top-left? I'm really not a fan of this - it would somewhat break the concept of activities.

I don't say this to be difficult, and we can look at other possibilities for branding if necessary. It would be helpful to know a bit more about these requests. What are the goals and motivation?
Comment 5 drago01 2013-03-01 11:08:51 UTC
(In reply to comment #4)
> (In reply to comment #0)
> > We currently only allow distributors to put a tiny icon in the top right corner
> > on the login screen. Here is what I have been asked to support:
> > 
> > - Make the icon in the top right corner of the login screen a bit bigger
> 
> Do you mean top-left?
> 
> That would cause some nasty alignment issues. I've been a bit concerned about
> the icon as it is, and have been thinking that having a configurable text
> string coild look better.

A string is not the same as an icon though ... the current one is hardly visible. We should just remove it and use the user list option.

> > - Allow a bigger icon above the user list (need to make work together with the
> > banner text)
> 
> I wasn't actually aware that we do this. What size do we currently allow? Is
> there a way to test it?

We no longer do this (we used up to 3.6) just boot a Fedora 16 installation and you will see it.

This made more sense then the one in the top left corner imo. We should re add it and remove the top left one again.
Comment 6 Allan Day 2013-03-01 11:48:41 UTC
(In reply to comment #5)
> (In reply to comment #4)
> > (In reply to comment #0)
> > > We currently only allow distributors to put a tiny icon in the top right corner
> > > on the login screen. Here is what I have been asked to support:
> > > 
> > > - Make the icon in the top right corner of the login screen a bit bigger
> > 
> > Do you mean top-left?
> > 
> > That would cause some nasty alignment issues. I've been a bit concerned about
> > the icon as it is, and have been thinking that having a configurable text
> > string coild look better.
> 
> A string is not the same as an icon though ... the current one is hardly
> visible. We should just remove it and use the user list option.
> 
> > > - Allow a bigger icon above the user list (need to make work together with the
> > > banner text)
> > 
> > I wasn't actually aware that we do this. What size do we currently allow? Is
> > there a way to test it?
> 
> We no longer do this (we used up to 3.6) just boot a Fedora 16 installation and
> you will see it.
> 
> This made more sense then the one in the top left corner imo. We should re add
> it and remove the top left one again.

The reason we moved it for 3.6 is that it didn't work visually with the rest of the design. It also got in the way when you had a long list of users.

And if you have the logo in the top bar, it needs to be aligned with the other items in there - which are small.
Comment 7 drago01 2013-03-01 11:53:35 UTC
(In reply to comment #6)
> (In reply to comment #5)
> > (In reply to comment #4)
> > > (In reply to comment #0)
> > > > We currently only allow distributors to put a tiny icon in the top right corner
> > > > on the login screen. Here is what I have been asked to support:
> > > > 
> > > > - Make the icon in the top right corner of the login screen a bit bigger
> > > 
> > > Do you mean top-left?
> > > 
> > > That would cause some nasty alignment issues. I've been a bit concerned about
> > > the icon as it is, and have been thinking that having a configurable text
> > > string coild look better.
> > 
> > A string is not the same as an icon though ... the current one is hardly
> > visible. We should just remove it and use the user list option.
> > 
> > > > - Allow a bigger icon above the user list (need to make work together with the
> > > > banner text)
> > > 
> > > I wasn't actually aware that we do this. What size do we currently allow? Is
> > > there a way to test it?
> > 
> > We no longer do this (we used up to 3.6) just boot a Fedora 16 installation and
> > you will see it.
> > 
> > This made more sense then the one in the top left corner imo. We should re add
> > it and remove the top left one again.
> 
> The reason we moved it for 3.6 is that it didn't work visually with the rest of
> the design. It also got in the way when you had a long list of users.
> 
> And if you have the logo in the top bar, it needs to be aligned with the other
> items in there - which are small.

Yeah but what we do now is worse than what we had before. Hence we should either find a better solution or revert the change for 3.8 and come up with something for 3.10,
Comment 8 Matthias Clasen 2013-03-01 18:24:02 UTC
See http://help.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/logo.html.en 
and http://help.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/login-disclaimer.html.en

for instructions on putting logos or disclaimer texts on the login screen.

I did mean top-left corner, indeed
Comment 9 Allan Day 2013-03-11 20:45:15 UTC
Having tried Fedora 19, it is clear that putting the logo in the top-left corner doesn't seem to be working. It is far too small, and does not align well with the rest of the top bar.

I spoke with Jon about this last week and we both agreed that having a text string in the same location with the name of the distribution would be preferable.

The top bar remains our preferred location for this, since it has a strong connection with the system and won't take space away from the user list.

We could also have a more general conversation about branding opportunities (I have one or two ideas here), but I'm not sure that this bug report is the best place for that...
Comment 10 Allan Day 2013-03-12 10:48:43 UTC
I just filed bug 695691 and bug 695692 as potential opportunities for brand placement.
Comment 11 Allan Day 2013-03-18 13:16:35 UTC
Testing on F19, the logo in the upper-left corner looks rather small and silly. It would be good to try and get that fixed for 3.8...
Comment 12 Florian Müllner 2013-03-18 13:35:23 UTC
A couple of hours before hard code freeze (and with neither code nor design) this is highly unlikely.
Comment 13 Ray Strode [halfline] 2013-03-18 15:48:53 UTC
re Comment 9, for what it's worth, the Fedora people are pretty set on having a logo.  We should find a design that incorprates it.

I think everyone agrees the logo in Fedora 19 is too small.  Part of the problem is it has a tremendous amount of padding in it.  Fixing that helps, but it still doesn't look right.

I also tried making the logo taller than the other items up top.  It still didn't look quite right to me.

Maybe now that we don't resize the user list as aggresively, we can put it back midway between the top panel and users?
Comment 14 Ray Strode [halfline] 2013-03-18 15:53:44 UTC
Also see:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-March/179667.html

One problem with putting it above the user list again is we might have trouble transitioning from the boot screen to the login screen without disturbing the logo (as Matthias proposed in that link)
Comment 15 drago01 2013-03-18 16:30:48 UTC
(In reply to comment #13)
 
> Maybe now that we don't resize the user list as aggresively, we can put it back
> midway between the top panel and users?

That's the only thing that really makes sense at this point.
If the designers don't like it they should come up with something for 3.10 the design for 3.8 turned out to be insufficient so lets go back to what we had before. (Which is basically the same which I said in comment 7 ...)
Comment 16 Allan Day 2013-03-18 17:10:05 UTC
(In reply to comment #12)
> A couple of hours before hard code freeze (and with neither code nor design)
> this is highly unlikely.

The design is to have a string with the distributor name in the top left hand corner.

The previous design really didn't look very good and had some issues with it. I don't think that going back to it is a good idea.
Comment 17 Ryan Lerch 2013-03-18 17:29:52 UTC
The distro logo is now in an area (the top panel), that is usually populated with elements a user interacts with. In fact when i first saw the fedora logo in the top left corner, i clicked it several times, thinking it was a user interface element.
Comment 18 Matthias Clasen 2013-03-18 18:28:58 UTC
I don't think the hard code freeze should stop us from coming up with a working design, and a patch we can put in Fedora (and probably in 3.8.1, too).
Comment 19 Florian Müllner 2013-03-18 18:31:49 UTC
My comment was only about 3.8.0, coming up with something acceptable for 3.8.1 should be very much possible.
Comment 20 Matthias Clasen 2013-03-18 20:24:03 UTC
Here is two quick attempts:

http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/logo1.png
http://mclasen.fedorapeople.org/logo2.png
Comment 22 Allan Day 2013-03-19 11:30:28 UTC
I made the following comments in a downstream discussion. Posting them here for symmetry...

A bit of background:

The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors. First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen: it's a prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the user list). Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence. We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements are the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to it, making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the parts of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user list). Third and finally, having the logo in its previous position limited the size to which the user list could grow when there are a large number of users.

My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look great. The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of these dimensions.

The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the top-left hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of including a logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor. However, the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about this proposal.

It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that this is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos onto products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote positive associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be. If you diminish the user experience through the addition of a logo, then you actually harm the brand: you make the product worse, and in the process you make it less likely that people will think good things about your brand.
Comment 24 Matthias Clasen 2013-03-19 20:47:10 UTC
This one: http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logobottom.png
seems to be the best-liked of the proposals. I've asked Florian to write a patch for this logo placement
Comment 25 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-03-27 13:50:42 UTC
What happened to this?
Comment 26 Matthias Clasen 2013-03-27 19:38:25 UTC
Florian has a patch, I hope it will land any day now
Comment 27 Ryan Lerch 2013-04-01 16:09:11 UTC
(In reply to comment #24)
> This one: http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logobottom.png
> seems to be the best-liked of the proposals. I've asked Florian to write a
> patch for this logo placement

Just wondering where the discussion took place on deciding that the bottom-center was the 'most liked'.


Additionally, i have done another sequence of mockups to try to keep the logo in the same position from plymouth all the way through to the login screen. These are very fedora-specific mockups, so i am not sure how other distros will want to implement this.

http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/1.png
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/2.png
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/3.png
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/4.png
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/5.png

as with my previous mockups, these are also just quick mockups of some ideas, rather than an actual, fully thought out proposal.
Comment 28 drago01 2013-04-01 16:21:31 UTC
(In reply to comment #27)
> (In reply to comment #24)
> > This one: http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logobottom.png
> > seems to be the best-liked of the proposals. I've asked Florian to write a
> > patch for this logo placement
> 
> Just wondering where the discussion took place on deciding that the
> bottom-center was the 'most liked'.
> 
> 
> Additionally, i have done another sequence of mockups to try to keep the logo
> in the same position from plymouth all the way through to the login screen.
> These are very fedora-specific mockups, so i am not sure how other distros will
> want to implement this.
> 
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/1.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/2.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/3.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/4.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/5.png
> 
> as with my previous mockups, these are also just quick mockups of some ideas,
> rather than an actual, fully thought out proposal.

The off center logo in the plymouth screen looks bad imo.
Comment 29 Florian Müllner 2013-04-01 20:07:12 UTC
(In reply to comment #27)
> Additionally, i have done another sequence of mockups to try to keep the logo
> in the same position from plymouth all the way through to the login screen.
> These are very fedora-specific mockups, so i am not sure how other distros will
> want to implement this.
> 
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/1.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/2.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/3.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/4.png
> http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/5.png

Sorry, but that placement implies to me that the primary purpose of the login screen is to display a logo, rather than picking a user/opening a session. I do understand the desire to add distro branding, but I also share Allan's concern in comment #22 to do so at the cost of the user experience.

More generally, positioning the logo relative to the user list means that either

 (1) the logo placement is inconsistent between GDM and plymouth

or

 (2) plymouth needs to know how many users there are on the system
     and how GDM will display them

(2) is unacceptable (if possible at all, considering when plymouth is started) and (1) undesirable. Using a position independent from the user list avoids this problem in the first place, and at least in my opinion bottom placement is preferable over top placement from both a design and code perspective (branding is secondary to functionality and plymouth doesn't need to make assumptions about the top bar's height). I don't have a strong opinion on horizontal alignment, though the proposed centering avoids potential problems with RTL system locales ...
Comment 30 Ryan Lerch 2013-04-01 20:40:41 UTC
> Sorry, but that placement implies to me that the primary purpose of the login
> screen is to display a logo, rather than picking a user/opening a session. 
> understand the desire to add distro branding, but I also share Allan's concern
> in comment #22 to do so at the cost of the user experience.

It is not about a 'desire' for a distro to slap a logo on everything. The primary *purpose* of this screen as a user element is to log in. However, i would counter in saying that a visible, legible logo informs the user where and what they are logging into. The distro logo has always been in a similar position, and i cannot find any evidence of users getting distracted, or having their logging in experience adversely effected due to where the logo is located.

> 
> More generally, positioning the logo relative to the user list means that
> either
> 
>  (1) the logo placement is inconsistent between GDM and plymouth
> 
> or
> 
>  (2) plymouth needs to know how many users there are on the system
>      and how GDM will display them
> 
> (2) is unacceptable (if possible at all, considering when plymouth is started)
> and (1) undesirable. Using a position independent from the user list avoids
> this problem in the first place, and at least in my opinion bottom placement is
> preferable over top placement from both a design and code perspective (branding
> is secondary to functionality and plymouth doesn't need to make assumptions
> about the top bar's height). I don't have a strong opinion on horizontal
> alignment, though the proposed centering avoids potential problems with RTL
> system locales ...


The logo itself was intended to be absolutely positioned (relative to the screen size itself, not the number of users on a system)

for example, here are some more quick mockups with varying user list lengths:

http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/6.png
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/7.png
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/8.png
Comment 31 Florian Müllner 2013-04-01 22:29:24 UTC
(In reply to comment #30)
> The distro logo has always been in a similar position [...]

Traditionally it has been in the top of the user list dialog, true. But now that there is no (visible) dialog anymore, the position no longer makes much sense to me. In particular pushing the user list down to a less optimal position, just to be able to put the logo in a bit more prominent position means getting priorities wrong IMHO.
Comment 32 Cosimo Cecchi 2013-04-01 22:40:37 UTC
I also feel that the proposed mockups sacrifice a bit too much the prominence/centering of the user list.

If the problem is the continuity of the logo position between Plymouth and GDM, then an idea might be to have Plymouth forward the position the logo was drawn to GDM, and then GDM could smoothly animate it from wherever it was to its final position (that could now be independent of the Plymouth's one) at the same time it animates in the user list.

I am not sure if this is desirable or possible at all, just an idea.
Comment 33 Ryan Lerch 2013-04-02 14:39:03 UTC
(In reply to comment #32)
> I also feel that the proposed mockups sacrifice a bit too much the
> prominence/centering of the user list.
> 
> If the problem is the continuity of the logo position between Plymouth and GDM,
> then an idea might be to have Plymouth forward the position the logo was drawn
> to GDM, and then GDM could smoothly animate it from wherever it was to its
> final position (that could now be independent of the Plymouth's one) at the
> same time it animates in the user list.
> 
> I am not sure if this is desirable or possible at all, just an idea.

Just going off your description here, but is this kind of what you had in mind?

http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/mocks/ani.ogv

Although, after looking at this transition a few times, it might be better not to have the logo appear in full colour in the middle before moving down, but instead transitioning to full colour as it moves down, and the userlist fades in.
Comment 34 Evandro Giovanini 2013-04-03 15:49:55 UTC
FWIW I also think the logo in the bottom looks far better. Perhaps the plymouth theme could be modified to match it by using the spinner theme as the base, adding the distribution logo on the bottom. 

This way the user list would replace the progress indicator while the logo would remain in the same place through the entire boot process.
Comment 35 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 16:16:49 UTC
Created attachment 243506 [details] [review]
modalDialog: Always use a stack for the background

Currently a system modal dialog's actor hierarchy depends on whether
events should be blocked while the dialog is shown or not. Change
it to always contain a stack, to allow subclasses to add additional
background elements.
Comment 36 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 16:16:57 UTC
Created attachment 243507 [details] [review]
loginDialog: (Optionally) show logo below user list

The optional logo on the login screen is currently shown in the
top bar, which is not only a rather unprominent position, it also
gives the wrong suggestion of a clickable element.
Newer designs call for the logo to be shown horizontally centered
at the bottom of the screen, so implement that instead.
Comment 37 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 16:17:03 UTC
Created attachment 243508 [details] [review]
loginDialog: Remove logo in upper left corner

With optional branding now being shown below the user list, we can
remove the unloved instance in the upper left corner ...
Comment 38 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-05-07 16:25:19 UTC
Review of attachment 243506 [details] [review]:

OK.
Comment 39 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-05-07 16:25:45 UTC
Review of attachment 243508 [details] [review]:

OK.
Comment 40 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-05-07 16:28:35 UTC
Review of attachment 243507 [details] [review]:

::: js/gdm/loginDialog.js
@@ +706,3 @@
+            let file = Gio.file_new_for_path(path);
+            let cache = St.TextureCache.get_default();
+            icon = cache.load_uri_async(file.get_uri(), -1, 48);

This will insert a file monitor we'll never use.

Should we connect to texture-cache-updated to use the monitor?
Comment 41 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 17:46:58 UTC
Created attachment 243513 [details] [review]
modalDialog: Always use a stack for the background

Properly expand the stack actor.
Comment 42 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 17:49:21 UTC
Created attachment 243523 [details] [review]
loginDialog: (Optionally) show logo below user list

(In reply to comment #40)
> Should we connect to texture-cache-updated to use the monitor?

Not sure "updating system from tty while login screen is shown" is a terribly important use case, but sure, why not ...

Other than that, I added some padding around the logo (rather than relying on the stack not covering the entire monitor).
Comment 43 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-05-07 17:49:40 UTC
Review of attachment 243513 [details] [review]:

++
Comment 44 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 18:08:09 UTC
Created attachment 243525 [details]
What it looks like ...
Comment 45 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-05-07 18:20:24 UTC
Review of attachment 243523 [details] [review]:

> Not sure "updating system from tty while login screen is shown" is a terribly
> important use case, but sure, why not ...

It's more to make sure that we don't "leak" the monitor, so to speak.

OK.
Comment 46 Jasper St. Pierre (not reading bugmail) 2013-05-07 18:20:51 UTC
Review of attachment 243523 [details] [review]:

(whoops, forgot to set the status)
Comment 47 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 18:53:37 UTC
Attachment 243508 [details] pushed as 22b6a25 - loginDialog: Remove logo in upper left corner
Attachment 243513 [details] pushed as e98eb57 - modalDialog: Always use a stack for the background
Attachment 243523 [details] pushed as cde695d - loginDialog: (Optionally) show logo below user list

Pushing after designer approval.
Comment 48 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 18:55:07 UTC
Attachment 243508 [details] pushed as 22b6a25 - loginDialog: Remove logo in upper left corner
Attachment 243513 [details] pushed as e98eb57 - modalDialog: Always use a stack for the background
Attachment 243523 [details] pushed as cde695d - loginDialog: (Optionally) show logo below user list

Pushed after designer approval
Comment 49 Colin Walters 2013-05-07 21:31:01 UTC
Hi Florian,

Pretty sure one of this commits caused the login dialog to expand to the full width: http://people.gnome.org/~walters/Screenshot-gnome-ostree-master%20Virtual%20Machine.png

I suspect it's the x_fill/y_fill in the stack commit.  Are those intentional?
Comment 50 Florian Müllner 2013-05-07 21:33:44 UTC
(In reply to comment #49)
> Pretty sure one of this commits caused the login dialog to expand to the full
> width

Yup, see bug 699877.