I am hoping to look into this tomorrow.

Jon

Woo hoo!  Assigning it to Jon. :-) Thanks so much!

Thanks Jon! 

Attila

Hi Atilla, all

Currently i have the following strings:

checkboxes: "Press space to toggle."
comboboxes: "Press space to expand, and use up and down to select an item."
radiobuttons: "Use up and down to select other values."
on landing on desktop: "To move to items, use the arrow keys. To get to the menus press the f1 key."
when unfocused child windows are detected: "Press alt+f6 to give focus to child windows."
page tabs: "Use left and right to view other tabs."
for tableCells which are open trees: "To collapse, press shift plus left."
for tableCells which are closed trees: "To expand, press shift plus right."

Suggestions please for what other messages might be useful? 

Developers:
One other thing, maybe it would be good to have a message for ctrl+tab for those annoying text areas that eat up the tab key, but they are both exposed as ROLE_TEXT, is there any other way to differentiate between them? (oowriter open dialogue as example)

Thank you

Jon, This string I think is mistake:
on landing on desktop: "To move to items, use the arrow keys. To get to the
menus press the f1 key."

The correct text:
on landing on desktop: "To move to items, use the arrow keys. To get to the
menus press the Alt+f1 key."

What your openion?

Another strings, this is suggestion:
If the user tabbed the edit box control, Orca spoken and writing the  braille
display: type in text. 
Button control: to activate press space bar. 
Lists: to move to items press arrow keys. 
Main menu (user pressing the f10 key): to navigate press left or right  arrow. 
User activate main menu item, for example the file menu and see menu  items: to
navigate press up or down arrow. 

If you make a patch, please send in attachment, I would like test if possible.

Attila

(In reply to comment #5)
> Jon, This string I think is mistake:
> on landing on desktop: "To move to items, use the arrow keys. To get to the
> menus press the f1 key."
> 
> The correct text:
> on landing on desktop: "To move to items, use the arrow keys. To get to the
> menus press the Alt+f1 key."
> 
> What your openion?

My opinion is that in Solaris the default key combination is Control+Escape. <smile>  That can also be customized.  So.... My temptation would be to only provide the keystrokes that we can count on gnome-wide.  We know, for instance, that once on the desktop you can use the arrow keys (or first letter navigation), so that would be worth stating.

This GNOME guide might be of use:
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/latest/keynav-1.html

correction: Not really first letter navigation; type-ahead kicks in.  So you can start typing the name of the file.

Thank you both,

Thank you for spotting that mistake, its now corrected.
The reason why i hesitated to put any text for text areas, is that we come across them quite regularly, and i was hoping to minimize irritation, so that when they come across something unusual, the tutorial string is there to help them.

As example, both in the windows and Gnome world, space activates the currently focused button, but a keystroke such as alt+f6 is less well known.

I will attach a patch once i clean up the code, i recycled speechgenerator.py, so will have to clean up the un-needed things.

Created attachment 115839 [details] [review]
Initial patch

Appologies for not submitting this sooner.

Please find attached patch, if one searches for _("
one would arrive on the messages.

An additional checkbox has been added to the speech tab, to toggle the tutorial messages.
The default setting has been set to True.

Please test, comments welcome.

Thank you

Jon, yeahh! I testing your patch tomorrow, very very thank you!

Attila

Hi Jon, first off, thanks a lot for doing this.  It seems to be headed in the right direction.  

Here are just a few observations:

1.  there seems to be no message for radio buttons.  I tested this in the orca prefs dialog.

2.  We only seem to hear the page tab message the first time the orca prefs dialog is opened.  If I navigate back to the page tab again I don't hear the message.  

3.  I'd like to see this set to false before it gets checked in as I think it'll be to verbose for most users.  

4.  What do you think about making this feature another verbosity level?  If we did that it could just be another radio button in the group and one less tab stop on the speech page?  I don't feel really strongly about this one it's just a thought.  

I'll keep it enabled during my work day today and make more comments.  Once again, thanks a lot.      

(In reply to comment #11)
> Hi Jon, first off, thanks a lot for doing this.  It seems to be headed in the
> right direction.  
Hi Mike, Thank you for your quick response

> Here are just a few observations:
> 1.  there seems to be no message for radio buttons.  I tested this in the orca
> prefs dialog.

True, there is currently nothing for radio buttons, i was worried that people would then use the keystrokes in the message to navigate between radio buttons in firefox, which require diffrent keystrokes. I will put it in and test it out.

> 2.  We only seem to hear the page tab message the first time the orca prefs
> dialog is opened.  If I navigate back to the page tab again I don't hear the
> message.  

Yes that was intentional, i thought it would be too verbose if it was done every time?
I put the message on landing on a PAGE_TAB_LIST, alternatively it could be on PAGE_TAB, but then we would read it even when moving between the general and speech tabs say.


> 3.  I'd like to see this set to false before it gets checked in as I think
> it'll be to verbose for most users.  

ok will do

> 4.  What do you think about making this feature another verbosity level?  If we
> did that it could just be another radio button in the group and one less tab
> stop on the speech page?  I don't feel really strongly about this one it's just
> a thought.  

ok will do this one too, saving space is always good :)

> I'll keep it enabled during my work day today and make more comments.  Once
> again, thanks a lot.

> > 2.  We only seem to hear the page tab message the first time the orca prefs
> > dialog is opened.  If I navigate back to the page tab again I don't hear the
> > message.  
> 
> Yes that was intentional, i thought it would be too verbose if it was done
> every time?
> I put the message on landing on a PAGE_TAB_LIST, alternatively it could be on
> PAGE_TAB, but then we would read it even when moving between the general and
> speech tabs say.
> 
OK this is cool with me.  
> > 4.  What do you think about making this feature another verbosity level?  If we
> > did that it could just be another radio button in the group and one less tab
> > stop on the speech page?  I don't feel really strongly about this one it's just
> > a thought.  
> 
> ok will do this one too, saving space is always good :)
>
thanks I always like to limit required keystrokes as much as possible.   

Hy Jon!

I tested shortly your patch, it is fine but I would like briefly testing, but I not do translate the tutor messages with hungarian language. I update my hu.po translation file with /orca/po directory with this command:
intltool-update hu
I see one fuzzy message (the check box message in speech page of Orca preferences GUI), I translated correctly.
But the tutor messages not see with translation hu.po file. Why? Have you any idea?

Attila

HMMM, Jon you doed correct marked for translatable the tutorial messages with # Translators comment, but the intltool-update command not put the my hu.po file this tutorial messages. I don't understand why. I tryed put with po/Makefile with ../src/orca/tutorialgenerator.py line, but not solve this problem.

Another problem with page tab list tutor message: possible doing spoken tutorial message with end of spoken, not begin? If I activate Orca Preferences GUI, the focus set the first page (general). Now, spoken first the tutor message, and after spoken general page. Possible reverse this?
Possible doing main menu tutor message if the user activate a main menu with f10 key, and if the user open for example with file menu with down arrow or the mnemonic key (for example with alt+f key), the submenu tutor message?
Main menu tutor message: To navigate press left or right arrow.
Activated main menu tutor message: to navigate press up or down arrow.

Attila

Another suggestion: If the user press where am I command, possible repeat the tutor message? Possible doing this if not a big work?

Attila

(In reply to comment #14)
> Hy Jon!

Hi Atilla, thank you for your testing!

> I tested shortly your patch, it is fine but I would like briefly testing, but I
> not do translate the tutor messages with hungarian language. I update my hu.po
> translation file with /orca/po directory with this command:
> intltool-update hu
> I see one fuzzy message (the check box message in speech page of Orca
> preferences GUI), I translated correctly.
> But the tutor messages not see with translation hu.po file. Why? Have you any
> idea?
> Attila

Sorry my fault, this will be fixed in the up-coming patch.

Neat stuff, Jon!  Thanks for the hard work.  Comments follow:

1) I notice this is speech-only.  Do we want to support the braille-only user?  In addition, maybe the checkbox could live on the "General" tab instead of the speech tab.

2) I agree with Attila that the tutorial messages should be added to all the Where Am I stuff as well.

3) Translators hate constructs that split sentences up over multiple strings:

+        desktopMsg = _("To move to items, use either ")
+        desktopMsg += _("the arrow keys, or type ahead searching.")

You can accomplish the same thing by doing the following, and the string *should* appear as one string in the *.po file:

+        desktopMsg = _("To move to items, use either " \
+                       "the arrow keys, or type ahead searching.")

4) I *think* the standard mechanism in GNOME for expanding/collapsing tree items are the + and - keys, but it's always confused me.

In any case, this looks pretty good and I think we should polish it and try to get it in to 2.24.  We need to do so soon, though, so we can beat the UI freeze (18-Aug).  Thanks again for your hard work!

Hi Mike,

with regard to point number 2 in comment #11:
"We only seem to hear the page tab message the first time the orca prefs
dialog is opened.  If I navigate back to the page tab again I don't hear the
message."
and the fact that the tutorial string is given before the tab, I worked out a diffrent solution.
We check if the last spoken message was a tab message then we dont speak it again.
i.e. it works as we think it should.

Having the above in place, it is now also possible for the following to happen:
We only speak the tutorial message if we land on an object that is diffrent from last spoken tutorial message.
as example:
"General page. Use left and right to view other tabs."
pressing shift tab:
"Ok button, To activate press space."
pressing shift tab:
"Cancel button"

This would remove some contiguous same messages, when tabbing between checkboxes or buttons as example.
Do you think this should be done?

Atilla, if Mike is happy with the above, is this ok with you?

Yes John.

Attila

In Jaws For Windows, if the user moves focus one checkbox with another check box, the tutor message spokening again, but if Mike happy, not problem duplicated spoken messages (John wroted).
Possible localizable in final patch version with tutor messages another language (for example with hungarian language)? If yes, it is fine.

Attila

(In reply to comment #18)
> Neat stuff, Jon!  Thanks for the hard work.  Comments follow:
Thanks Will, its the glade constructions that slow me down by miles, as seen in other bugs, the rest is straight forward.

> 1) I notice this is speech-only.  Do we want to support the braille-only user? 

We might do that, but for Jaws its only done in the speech (almost sure of it).
I also consider braille cells expensive, so would try to minimize or shorten anything that might need to be output there.
Can we assume that a user that requires the beginner verbosity is doing so with speech enabled, and switches to braille only usage when they are more knowledgeable?

> In addition, maybe the checkbox could live on the "General" tab instead of the
> speech tab.

In unsubmitted patch, it is living as a Beginner verbosity setting in the speech tab.
As you suggest this should be moved to general tab if we end up with braille tutorial strings.

> 2) I agree with Attila that the tutorial messages should be added to all the
> Where Am I stuff as well.

Will look into this

> 3) Translators hate constructs that split sentences up over multiple strings:
> +        desktopMsg = _("To move to items, use either ")
> +        desktopMsg += _("the arrow keys, or type ahead searching.")
> You can accomplish the same thing by doing the following, and the string
> *should* appear as one string in the *.po file:
> +        desktopMsg = _("To move to items, use either " \
> +                       "the arrow keys, or type ahead searching.")

Appologies for this :) now altered in unsubmitted patch.

> 4) I *think* the standard mechanism in GNOME for expanding/collapsing tree
> items are the + and - keys, but it's always confused me.

aah, sorry was unaware of + and - which should be included?
+ and - since they are fewer keys?

> In any case, this looks pretty good and I think we should polish it and try to
> get it in to 2.24.  We need to do so soon, though, so we can beat the UI freeze
> (18-Aug).

Thank you for the date, a deadline is always good :)

> Thanks again for your hard work!

Not at all, my pleasure.

Hi Jon, just a couple comments 

1.  Your new plan for page tabs, checkboxes and the like is a great one.  I think it is much cleaner than the JAWS solution.  

2.  I think we should save any braille implementation of this feature until we have some sort of flash message capibility in orca.  

3.  what do you think about adding a third verbosity level to handle this feature instead of adding it to the beginner?  Just a thought.  

(In reply to comment #23)
> Hi Jon, just a couple comments 
> 1.  Your new plan for page tabs, checkboxes and the like is a great one.  I
> think it is much cleaner than the JAWS solution.  

I'm glad you like it!

> 2.  I think we should save any braille implementation of this feature until we
> have some sort of flash message capibility in orca.  

Totally agreed, and it has been at the back of my mind to look at, when ever i get a little time.
Flash messages are definately needed.

> 3.  what do you think about adding a third verbosity level to handle this
> feature instead of adding it to the beginner?  Just a thought.  

Sorry did not quite follow you there, are you refering to point 1?
If so, then the diffrence between beginner and "intermediate" would only be the repeatability of the messages? or did i get the wrong end of the stick.

Thank you Mike

> > 3.  what do you think about adding a third verbosity level to handle this
> > feature instead of adding it to the beginner?  Just a thought.  
> 
> Sorry did not quite follow you there, are you refering to point 1?
> If so, then the diffrence between beginner and "intermediate" would only be the
> repeatability of the messages? or did i get the wrong end of the stick.
>
Actually what I was thinking was to add a new verbosity option to the radio button group on the speech tab.  The choices for 2.24 would be as follows:  

beginner: the current beginner plus your new feature

Intermediate: the old beginner functionality 

advanced:  unchanged although I keep meaning to improve the advanced option.
 

OK I really wasn't thinking when I wrote the above comment.  Some how I had it in my head that we already had the three options that I want.  
Lets rename the current two that we have to the three that I wrote above and I think we'll be good.  

Just to follow up on this and to put some disjoint conversations back in joint.  :-)  The plan to move forward with this awesome work is:

1) Keep it speech-only for now.

2) Do not do the verbosity thing, but keep the "Speak tutorial messages" checkbox in the speech tab.

3) Turn it off by default.

4) Add the tutorial messages to Where Am I

5) Fix the splitting up of sentences over lines.

6) Adjust the tree node tutorial to use "+" and "-" (plus and minus) instead of the arrow keys.

Thanks so much for your hard work!

(In reply to comment #27)
> 6) Adjust the tree node tutorial to use "+" and "-" (plus and minus) instead of
> the arrow keys.

It turns out that various things don't follow the GNOME guidelines, whereas most things seem to use the Shift+arrow keys.  So, I guess documenting the behavior that works is better.  That is, keep the Shift+arrow key messages.

Created attachment 116006 [details] [review]
revision 2

Ok, thanks for your patients,

This patch:

* addresses the points that Will mensioned in the previous comment.
* does not repeat tutorial messages if we are tabbing between objects of the same role, but the user can still hear them if they perform a whereAmI functioncall.
* adds tutorial messages for menues, submenues, menu items, and check menu items.
* adds tutorialgenerator.py to the po/Makefile.in, to enable correct translations (Thanks Atilla!)

pylints to 10.00

Please test,

Thank you

Thanks Jon, I testing evening or tomorrow morning because I not home this day.

Attila

Created attachment 116021 [details] [review]
revision 3

patch fixes error due to typo for table cells (Thankgs pidgin)

Thanks

This functionality seems to be working really well.  I'd say lets get it checked in for some wider user testing.  

Thanks a lot Jon for doing this.  Perhaps after it gets checked in you can send out a message to the orca users list describing the new functionality.  

This is getting very close (YEAH!).  Here's the new strings so far, and they will need to be sent to gnome-i18n@ and gnome-doc-list@:

> msgid "Press space to toggle."
> msgid "Press space to expand, and use up and down to select an item."
> msgid "Press alt+f6 to give focus to child windows."
> msgid "Use up and down to select an item."
> msgid "To collapse, press shift plus left."
> msgid "To expand, press shift plus right."
> msgid "Use left and right to view other tabs."
> msgid "To activate press space."
> msgid "Use arrow keys to change."
> msgid "To navigate, press left or right arrow."
> msgid "To enter sub menu, press right arrow."
> msgid "Hi I am a menu bar."
> msgid "Hi I am a menu item."

Are the last two strings ("Hi I am...") an indication that they might need updating prior to commit?

Created attachment 116192 [details] [review]
revision 4

Appologies for the last two strings, i was leavind dead code behind, that needed removing.
Above is exactly the same, but those two functions eliminated.
Do I just state that these are additional strings for orca, and quote them? Any other information that i should include?

Thanks

Sorry forgot to say that i currently do not have commit permissions for svn.

Yesterday I testing revision 3 patch, and making hungarian translations the tutor messages. I see this two strings in translation file:
 msgid "Hi I am a menu bar."
 msgid "Hi I am a menu item." 
What mean this two string (if I know right, Jon you dead this two string with revision 4 version).

The desktop tutor messages not spoken if I pressing ctrl+alt+d and nothing selected, or pressing where am I command for desktop.
or Moving icons, but tutor message not spoken. Possible not work this tutor message function?

If activate one main menu (for example with file menu any program) and not a submenu but menu items, possible doing this tutor message:
to moving menu items, press up or down arrow keys. 
Now Orca spoken:
o activate, press space (if I remember correct).
Or put the prewious suggest message before tutor message (o activate, press space).
If a submenu item, tutor message is right.

Check menus not define tutor messages.
Possible doing this?

Possible doing tutor message for sliders (for example with Orca preferences GUI/speech page /rate control is slider, but not define tutor message now).

Type in text tutor message not marked for translation.

Sorry long comment.

Attila

Created attachment 116226 [details] [review]
revision 5

Hi Atilla,

* The "Hi i am" messages were only for testing purposes, thats why they were removed from revision 4 and 5.
* For the menues, I added "To move through items press up or down arrow."
* Menu check items do have a tutorial, "Press space to toggle."
I havent added anything for menu radio items, I dont know what would be a useful message to have.
* tutorial for slider has been added.
* "Type in text." has been marked for translation (sorry about this one)
* The reason for the desktop message, is that it is spoken when the frame gets focus. When you move between the icons, 
or perform a whereAmI, it is not the frame that has the focus, but the icon view, and thats why you hear "icon panel ...".

Thank you for your testing.

p.s. Sorry Mike, i cant seem to change the status to [testing required], you seem to have reassigned the bug.

Thanks Jon.

Radio menu item tutor message possible:
Press space key to toggle? Anybody openions?

You wroted:
"* The reason for the desktop message, is that it is spoken when the frame gets
focus. When you move between the icons, 
or perform a whereAmI, it is not the frame that has the focus, but the icon
view, and thats why you hear "icon panel ...".
Why not work this tutor message with revision 3 patch? Work now this with revision 5?
Suggestion: if important, possible saying this tutor message with where am I command when frame focused or icons are selected? Anybody openions?

I looking tomorrow morning the revision 5 version, Jon, this function is wonderful time bi time. 

Attila

Tested revision 5 version.
Slider tutor message, type in text tutor message is good.
This tutor message is not spokened when I pressing ctrl+alt+d, frame is focused:
msgid ""
"To move to items, use either the arrow keys, or type ahead searching. To get "
"to the system menues press the alt+f1 key."

How work this function? Where am I not spoken this.

Menues tutor messages:
When I press f10 key, this tutor message is spokened:
msgid ""
"To navigate, press left or right arrow. To move through items press up or "
"down arrow."
It is correct.
When I press down arrow for example with Gedit application /file menu, incorrect tutor message spokened:
To activate, press space. This is a redundant tutor message.
Jaws For Windows tutorial messages for menus work this algorithm, little modifications:
1. If user press f10 key, spokening the quoted tutorial message, and after:
2. When user press down arrow or enter key or accelerated letter with main menu (main menu is displayed with f10 key before), tutor message not spoken.
3. If menu item is a sub menu, spoken only the submenu tutor message.

Another case:
User pressing for example with alt+f key (file menu mnemonic key), and main menu is not displayed before:
This case only enough spoken this tutor message:
To move through items press up or down arrow.
Or it is a submenu item, the submenu tutor message.

Where am I command not spoken menues tutor messages now.
Openions?
If not enough time doing this modifications or it is not important, good for now working menu tutor messages.

Attila

Uh oh, menu tutorial messages is simplest with Jaws:
When user press f10 key, tutor message:
"To navigate, press left or right arrow (main menu tutor message).
When user press down arrow or mnemonic key with opened main menu:
"To move trough items, press up or down arrow."
Only first focusing spoken tutor messages (main menu focusing, main menu tutor message spokening, when menu item focusing, menu item tutor message spokening).
Jaws not define submenus tutorial message.

Openions?

Attila

Hi All:

Where do we stand with this bug?  UI freeze is this coming Monday, Aug 18, so we need to determine if we want to get this in for 2.24 or not.  I think we should shoot for it if Attila and Jon can work it out.

Thanks!

Will

Created attachment 116474 [details] [review]
revision 6

Hi Will and others,

Sorry was held up with family related issues.

1. Desktop message now presented when doing whereAmI on desktop.
2. For the menues, "Press space to activate" is probably reasonable, afterall we are not trying to immitate jaws behavior, and we do say Press up or down to move through items. The "press space to activate" for menu items is not said that frequently, unless menu items are interspersed between a list of check boxes, or submenues. So I say leave things as they are. This RFE is for tutorial strings afterall.
3. Added tutorial for menu radio button.
4. So far I have been modifying whereAmI functions as I add tutorial functions, and as by personal experience I keep
forgetting to change the whereAmI file to reflect the right function. This patch will call tutorial messages independently. I hope I havent misset too many functions.

Mike I am happy with the current version to be tested and if found reasonable to be included.

Thank you

Jon, testing afternoon revision 6 version.

Attila

Jon, this version is good.
But desktop tutor message not spoken my machine when I activate where am I command. 
I  testing Debian Lenny, Orca 2.23.90-pre version.
Interesting think:
When I opened a menu, pressing where am I command, Orca sayed correctly the tutorial message. When I move arrow keys for menues after by where am I command, Orca repeat tutorial message.
I see this with another controls (check boxes, etc) with Orca preferences gui.

If you not found other mistakes function, any developer please put the revision 6 or final version with svn trunk (Aug. 18 is very near).

I would like thank you your good and beautiful work.

Attila

Hi Atilla,

Thanks for your testing
I'am sorry to hear that the desktop message is not showing up for you, I don't know what exactly would be the problem.
I wonder if anyone else can reproduce the issue? It works fine here.

It is true, when someone does a whereAmI call, the next object that has a tutorial string will also be spoken.
If they asked for the tutorial string by pressing the whereAmI, it is quite likely that they need to hear the next tutorial message, I was hoping that it would be a safe assumption.

Jon, what your GNOME version using you?
And Os version?
I testing your patch with Debian Lenny and Ubuntu Hardy, and GNOME version is 2.22.3.
Tryed download latest svn trunk version of Orca (clean directory), uninstall prewious version, and after using revision 6 version your patch.
I don't understand, but I very happy work the desktop tutorial message with your machine. :-):-) 

Attila

Hi Atilla,

I am using Ubuntu gutsy, gnome version 2.20.1, but running atk, gail, at-spi and orca all from trunk.

Hope this helps

This latest patch is working well for me.  If everyone else involved is happy with it I'm all for checking it in.  

I think the patch looks good from looking at it.  I will apply it, test it, and check it in tomorrow with any small changes that might need changing (doesn't look like any are necessary).  I'll also send announcement notes to the appropriate teams.  Thanks for your hard work!

Will, possible implement Jon patch with 2.24 version of Orca? Not problem not work desktop tutor message with my computer, i think my computer trouble. :-(:-(
I tryed download atspy, gail and atk with svn trunk (Jon suggests), installed this libraryes and recompiled clean Orca source, but not help. I think reinstall my os when finish this testing period (after august 18).

Attila