GNOME Bugzilla – Bug 623472
menu disappeared from main toolbar
Last modified: 2010-10-25 19:44:35 UTC
Menu disappeared from main toolbar, that was thhere for good 10 years, this really really distrubs me. If any new user wants to have additional window with the menu, please do so, but do not destroy good habits of old users. Please bring back the main menu to the toolbar!!!
What is more, there are some situations where I need only one GIMP window, like the main toolbar, nothing additional. With this new design I must have two windows opened. Also when I close the last window program shuts down - this breaks my habits ow working with GIMP. If you add something new, do not destroy the valuable things that are already in the software...
This is not a bug report, and all of this has been decided ages ago.
Why there is no menu and no option for the menu to be over there? I consider this a bug that disturbs my work... I dont understand why you have changed this nice feature into something horrible :-(
Someone has been nice enough to write a patch that you can apply to get the classic GIMP UI: http://sourceforge.net/projects/gimp-classic/ We're not going to bring the toolbox menu back. Having two different kind of menu bars in one single application is insane. For a bit more info on why we did the change, you might want to check out the UI spec: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/No_image_open_specification
Insane is that you change the GUI and break great experience of using this great program. Insane is that I need to patch things up to maintain backward compatibility. You are the Linux guys aren't you - you think when something change then its better? If users are so nice to patch your changes, maybe it is worth including these patches in the main tree, because there are users that preferred things the old way... Maybe you could/should leave a choice for the users, not force them to use worse changes. What is the problem to put/switch this menu in the main toolbar - none - except you say "We're not going to bring the toolbox menu back.", like you were the owners and inventors of it. This is sad anyway, because I notice such degradation in other open source programs.
We changed this after long discussion, involving usability experts and... But wait, I forgot, we are linux guys. In fact we just changed it to antagonize you (especially you), we didn't think of any user experience at all. The main purpose of the change was to make GIMP a lot less usable. Oh and btw, our decision not to bring the menu back has nothing to do whatsoever with having a product vision that tries to bring GIMP forward, it's exclusively related to our insane egos. Do you by any chance know another program that has two main menus, one in the image window, and a different one on a toolbar window? It simply *is* insane to do this, and we corrected that mistake.
No offence, there are people of this kind - they put non-backward compatibile beta bootloader into stable release, or change layout each release... This what you call "mistake" was pretty nice feature to me and I'm not the only one that liked it, why: -it was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of windows -it was great for creating new GIMP sub-windows on separate desktops for each application -right now I cannot put the toolbar on a desktop different than where window resides - the toolbar MUST be on the desktop with the window -when I close last window, so called no-window, GIMP quits -I am really used to have this toolbar open on a free workspace and work on another workspace As you can see there is a reasonable need to have menu in a toolbar residing on a separate desktop. Right now it looks broken to me. It was simple and effective *feature*. Whoever wanted to use menu in the window could use it, who wanted to use menu in the toolbar also could use it. Right now the second possibility was taken away with no option to switch it back :-( I am not against developing new features and designs, I am extremely grateful for this marvelous program, but please remember about the compatibility. It would be extremely nice to have a choice - it is not a critical and hard-to-implement feature. It was already there. It is a matter of simple menu in the toolbar+menu to act as a constant no-window itself, or creating separate no-window as a new feature. Michael - Blender 3D can have dozens of menus in one window in fact this whole program has only one window for faster screen rendering over the network - this is a feature. Not everyone likes Blender but there are people loving the way it works. Please do not think in terms "who else" - because there are reasons for using "insane" programs and their features :-) Maybe it would be possible to simply add this option as a choice for end-user - to select over no-window or simply old-fashioned-toolbar menu. If it is possible then I kindly ask for this feature. I am sure there are more users prefering the "old way" :-)
So far your only reason for wanting this back is "I'm used to it". But what did you actually do with the menu in the toolbox window?
There is no arguing this, we won't add the menu back. Period. You are asking us to design GIMP for you, but from what I can tell you are not even remotely in the group of people GIMP is targeted at. Sorry for being rude, but that's the way it is.
Ok, now I can see how things are. I have written how I did use this menu - mainly in multiple (virtual)desktop environment that got broken with release 2.6. You heard my arguments, the only one of yours was "show me the other application that does so" (and I showed Blender). It is also not a matter of designing GIMP for me, silly argument, this is a matter of functionality degradation - the functionality was there for good 10 years and people enjoyed it! But I understand I am not "even remotely in the group of people GIMP is targeted at" as you are so I have nothing to say, you will neither accept my words nor patches to bring back the old functionality. These changes will have to wait for another group. Sad but true. Still I really don't understand why you have removed it - if you did not use it then simply you could ignore it and leave for others that did. Thank you for conversation anyway.
I want you to understand why we did the change, mind if we keep this discussion going? First of all, I don't understand your arguments that removing the menu broke GIMP in a multiple desktop environment. Why is it necessary to have a menu for this? Maybe you are confusing the menu with the window hint for the toolbox? Do you know about Edit -> Preferences -> Window Management -> [window hints]? Try set toolbox to 'Normal window'. Let's start there.
Oh, and yes, not being able to close the toolbox clearly is broken, but it will be fixed in GIMP 2.8 (try GIMP 2.7.1 for a preview).
(In reply to comment #11) > (...) > you know about Edit -> Preferences -> Window Management -> [window hints]? Try > set toolbox to 'Normal window'. > > Let's start there. Hint for the toolbar set as "normal window" makes it possible to move along virtual desktops separate from the image. Also I can set other docks (such as Layers) to be "utility window" that keeps on the same desktop as the picture - so I can have separate picture on a separate desktop and each of them has its own utility window! This is really really nice feature, congratulations!!! Thank you Martin for this hint :-) But still I am not able to create new window, scan, take a screenshot, open from clipboard nor anything else from the toolbar :-( I usually use GIMP for technical documentation, watermarking, editing, processing and verifying images, sometimes targeted to the world wide web, sometimes for printing. There are situations where I have over 20 images opened simultaneously so it is really hard to have them on one desktop. This menu in toolbar helped me a lot. In fact I dont need a toolbar on a desktop with a picture because everything is accesible from the dropdown menu anyway, but I need the toolbar on a desktop where there are no pictures yet, as there was menu to create new pictures. Still, toolbar is useful for faster tool selection. I got used to this menu so much that each time I point my cursor over the toolbar and the menu is gone hahah ;-)
(In reply to comment #12) > Oh, and yes, not being able to close the toolbox clearly is broken, but it will > be fixed in GIMP 2.8 (try GIMP 2.7.1 for a preview). I can close the toolbar, then GIMP wants to close all windows and quit, this looks fine to me. This is also the best proof how things are/were - the toolbar was the main GIMP window itself, pictures were only instances. There is no need to create additional window that is "no-window", because toolbar performed function of this "no-window" perfectly. It was even better because it took only some space aside, right now additional "no-window" covers what is below the GIMP and should be visible (ie. for screenshot). As I understand right now you want to totaly move out the main window from toolbar to the picture window - this will even more impact old GIMP users habits. I understand that these changes might be targeted for Adobe Photoshop users for smoother switch into GIMP. These changes could and should be done as additional functionality, not total GUI redesign crashing good program tradition. From my experience people that want to use MS Office dont want to use OpenOffice anyway - the same was with some of my friends that use GIMP and that stick to the Photohsop.
I'm glad changing the window hint made GIMP more useful to you. But still, your argument is built up on what you are used to, not what makes sense in terms of usability. Having two different 'File' menus for example simply does not make sense from a usability point of view. Don't you agree with this? If you don't agree, then there really is no point in continuing discussion about usability since you then obviously have no taste ;) and if you *do* agree, then why are you arguing that you want the menu back :) Photoshop is mostly irrelevant for us. We just want to build a great image editor. (And please avoid reopening the bug report all the time)
(In reply to comment #15) > I'm glad changing the window hint made GIMP more useful to you. Still not even more useful than 2.4 with the menu in the toolbar that also could walk through desktops. If you added this option for hint, why you dont want to add this option for menu...? > But still, your argument is built up on what you are used to, not what makes > sense in terms of usability. Having two different 'File' menus for example > simply does not make sense from a usability point of view. Don't you agree with this? I don't agree. If you read carefully I told you that menu in the main toolbar allows initiating actions such as opening file, creating file from clipboard, scanning, and other actions that are performed on a wokspace where toolbar is visible with no other window. This is usability. I am also got used to it. Right now there is only a toolbar but no action can be performed because there is no menu. THIS MENU IS A USABILITY. Damn, is that so hard to understand? > If you don't agree, then there really is no point in continuing > discussion about usability since you then obviously have no taste ;) and if you > *do* agree, then why are you arguing that you want the menu back :) Usability has nothing to do with taste. I am not talking about window color or icon design, but the menu that allows working. I am talking about way of thinking to extend functionality without destroying what has been already done. Thinking and logic somehow is not quite related with taste neither, but I can see you are the taste specialist, so you wont understand what Im talking about. I dont care about your tase by the way, its your choice. > Photoshop is mostly irrelevant for us. We just want to build a great image > editor. Great, then extend it, add new options and functionalities, listen what makes it usable and nice to the users. But do not destroy what has already been done, as you do it now. I hope someone sensible will show up in the project soon and stop this nonsense. This is not _OPEN_ Source anymore - there are only sources available :-( EOT
(In reply to comment #17) > > Having two different 'File' menus for example > > simply does not make sense from a usability point of view. Don't you agree with this? > > I don't agree. I think this fundamental disagreement makes further discussions pointless. Having two menus raises questions like "What window is the main window?", "Why does this application have two menu bars?" "What File menu was it again I could take screenshots from?". If you think it is ok to let users worry about such things then to me you have no credibility at all when it comes to usability and interaction design.
Why do you think that you know what is comfortable better than users of your product?
Nice to hear support, however I don't think they will listen to the users anymore Konstantin. For instance - in the layers dialog there was a nice trashcan icon to remove a layer, pretty intuitive, right now it is replaced by something that rather looks like a cable or a connector of some kind. But this it the "new design".
Konstantin, CeDeROM: Discussion of functionality should happen in the gimp developer mailing list, where everything is visible to many more people than just here. Believe me, no one is trying to ignore the users. In fact, the developers even constantly help users and hear their voice over the GIMP IRC channel (See http://www.gimp.org/irc.html). (In reply to comment #19) > Why do you think that you know what is comfortable better than users of your > product? The answer to that is simple - we don't. We clearly need feedback from the users, and the way we recieve it is the IRC and mailing-list. No one has anything against hearing your opinion, but you should raise your ideas in the apropriate place. As it was pointed out earlier, http://gui.gimp.org/ is the place which shows (at least partially) where GIMP is heading to and why - You can see most of the reasoning for UI changes there. (In reply to comment #20) > Nice to hear support, however I don't think they will listen to the users > anymore Konstantin. For instance - in the layers dialog there was a nice > trashcan icon to remove a layer, pretty intuitive, right now it is replaced by > something that rather looks like a cable or a connector of some kind. But this > it the "new design". CeDeROM: In addition to what I said above, I don't understand what trashcan icon you are missing... We have a trash icon at the bottom of the dialog, as shown here - http://docs.gimp.org/2.6/en/gimp-dialogs-structure.html#gimp-layer-dialog. GIMP is not developed by a bunch of stone-hearted people who like to ignore the users. The greatest pleasure (or at least one of them) of open-source developers is hearing the appreciation from the users; we are not developing open-source software just for ourselves. About the example from the blender interface - here is a quote from blender's official wiki: "Blender has a very unusual interface, highly optimized for 3D graphics production". That's why blender has several menus, and that exactly is why gimp doesn't! GIMP's interface is optimized to take the least amount of space as possible - to give you a larger area to work on your image. I'll give you a small tip for your use case - Try the Tab key. Clicking tab hides all the dialogs (including the toolbox) and clicking it again will show them back - that's why you don't need a seperate desktop for the toolbox and other dialogs. If you are already switching a desktop using some key combo, simply use tab - it's quicker and more useful to hide/show these windows. I'll drop also one last word - as someone that untill a few months ago was just a regular user who asked questions: When I spoke calmly, the developers listened - and this is true not just to developers but for all the people in the world ;) One thing that you should keep in mind is that if you really want something, do it. It's open-source software and development is done volunteeringly - so we code what we prefer first (and it makes sense when you think about it). If you want to create a fork/branch of GIMP to have the UI the way you want, you are more than welcome to do this. As part of the "open-source spirit", developing your ideas is encouraged and if you say that many users would like it, why not try to do it yourself? The first time I contributed to GIMP's core was when I wanted something that wasn't there - so I sat and learned C and played with the source. Features get developed faster by the people who need them - so if you need an alternative UI, you are welcome to start working on it - there will be people that will help you ;) I think my last usability tip, along with the other things I said, proove that we do try to listen to users :) The GIMP IRC channel is very active (at some hours) and if you want to chat with the dev's live, that would be the place. Let's stop the discussion in the bugzilla page, as it just generates mails to every bug-solver in gimp, including ones who have nothing to do with this issue (and our purpose is not to annoy them...)
Hello "Lightning" and thank you for your kind reply (also the Tab trick is very nice, as some more features introduced in GIMP 2.6, I don't deny it). Today I have sent email to the gimp-developer mailing list asking to bring the menu back. I was sure noone will listen to this because I have seen some ideas of this kind and they were replied by Martin "There is no arguing this, we won't add the menu back. Period." - this is why I did not persist on this anymore, there is no discussion with him and his sense of style. You understand that this attitude is not what people call "open". I have proposed to make this change to the source code and introduced external project (gimp-classic) bringing back this menu again in GIMP 2.6, but this idea was also rejected. Maybe the mailing list will have more sensible people reading user feedback. I am not against changes, but giving user the choice - it can be done by an option or parameter. Removing useful functionalities with no alternative is not an option for me, especially when people want it back. Taste is not argument in here. Regarding the icon - yes it is dependent on a system icon set - really nice feature and my mistake sorry! :-) Regarding the open source and extending the code - I am aware of that - you can take a look at my current project that brings the ability to use SWD in new ARM Cortex cores for embedded programmers: http://stm32primer2swd.sf.net I do this without destroying old stuff :-) Best regards,
Ok, analyzing the TAB functionality that hides all of the toolbars, connected with resizing the no-window - for me it behaves almost like old toolbox (even better because this initial window is even smaller) the functionality of the old GIMP is somehow restored - the no-window alone can act as the old toolbar, except menu and functions are being called after Right Click. The only thing to be done is to show no toolbars at the GIMP start, only the no-window - so the size, visibility and position should be remembered from last run (to make this no-window act as old toolbox). It looks and feels different but can do the same in somehow similar manner. Have a nice day! :-)
(In reply to comment #23) > The only thing to > be done is to show no toolbars at the GIMP start, only the no-window - so the > size, visibility and position should be remembered from last run I just pointed this out on the mailing list but I might as well point it out here too: that's how it works in bleeding edge GIMP.