GNOME Bugzilla – Bug 83428
Remove "Start Here" or otherwise fix it
Last modified: 2005-08-15 01:40:17 UTC
Users should not be editing menu and menu item properties in Nautilus, particularly when the functionality is buried under an obscure-sounding menu item in an arbitrary menu. This functionality should be presented where all other preferences are set on the desktop by the user, i.e., in Applications > Desktop Preferences from foobar. Currently the way to edit, for example, paths for menu launchers via GUI is to right click on a menu launcher, choose "Properties," and try editing that way. This is acceptable for the short term. Request to remove "Start Here" menu item and desktop preferences editing functionality from Nautilus (only Nautilus-specific prefs must be editable from Nautilus) and transfer functionality to a new menu item called "Menus" in Applications > Desktop Preferences (separate bug, long-term goal).
coleen: In general i agree with you on this. I think start here stinks. What we should do is make sure all programs are accessible from the applications menu. Then add applications to the go menu and toolbar. The applications folder can than be used for launching applications from nautilus if user wants to and can also be used for menu editing. What is your opinion on this idea???
Another thing. I don't think that it is bad that the applications directory and associated menu items are editable from nautilus however, I do agree that there should be a simple menu editing tool as well in the desktop preferences. This would be similar to how windows handles menu editing.
I think that applications should be accessed from foobar. And only indirectly from Nautilus (via openwith functionality, for instance, or when a file is opened by clicking on it). I think it is gratuitous to have menu editing functionality in Nautilus when it's available from foobar, which is always visible and available to the user. All applications *are* available from the applications menu, as far as I am aware... or I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that comment. Coleen
I have to disagree with you on this. It is nice to have an applications directory in nautilus, because a) it is conceivable that users may not be using any panels and may want to launch apps from nautilus like they can from mac finder. b) Menu editing from within nautilus has the potential to be very powerful for advance users. c) i think the current menu editing in the menu panel via right click menus suck. Those should be removed. I've filed bug 83433, that requests the control-center to provide a simple tool for general menu editing. Advance users should be able to edit menus using the applications directory if they so choose.
As far as I know, there will never be a case where users can remove ALL panels. There will always be at least one panel on the desktop. This is the main reason I am pushing for removal of the menu-editing functionality in Nautilus; redundancy. As it is, GNOME is bloated with gratuitous ways to do ONE thing. If menu editing capability is available in the panel, where menus live, and where other preferences for the desktop are set, why have this option live somewhere else where users will have a hard time finding it? Also, yes, I agree: right now, the way menus are edited sucks, big time. I am hoping for a long term solution where a config dialog can be launched from Applications > Desktop Preferences > Menus, to do this. What do you think?
I agree a basic menu editing tool would be really nice see bug 83433. I disagree with you that menu editing in nautilus is bloat though. First are you aware that the applications directory is just a folder (actually a vfolder). It's contents are parsed and used in the application pull down menu in the menu panel and gnome-menu applet. Using nautilus is actually very intuitive since the contents of applications:// are stored using the gnome-vfs vfolder method, hence all basic file operations on the applications directory are gained for free. There is no extraneous nautilus code. Also it is convenient to have such a directory easily available for quick application launching when you are using nautilus. This is similar to the applications folder in mac finder. It is conceivable though unlikely, that nautilus will be used in non gnome setups eg. a user using Ice wm as there window manager who just wants a nice file manager. ( I frequently use konqueror actually as a reference in my gnome setup so this is not an unreasonable assumption imho) Let me just add that i would be really happy to see start-here:// preferences:// system-settings:// and server-settings:// all disapear as they are very redundant. All applications launchers in these various directories are available from the applications directory.
I believe the basic menu-editing tool available from foobar menus is a long-term goal (see bug 75977); people aware of the lack, it's just a matter of getting to it. I'm still not convinced that you need a duplicate Applications menu from a file browser that people aren't exactly jumping up and down to use. But that's a different issue. Also, by "bloat," I meant in the way of functionality. WRT to the app folder in Macs: I've been using a Mac extensively for almost 10 years, and I've never seen people use the applications folder for launching applications! Why would they do that? It doesn't make sense; there are menus right there on the panel (where the apple menu is for quick launchers), much like in GNOME2, or launchers (aliases, in Apple) you can add onto the desktop. Chances are, you are NOT going to have Nautilus open all the time (why would you?), it'll at best be minimized, but the panel menus will ALWAYS be there, visible, on the desktop, and available. I guess I just think that all you believe to be made available for the user will be eventually available for them in the place that is a bit more visible and consistent with what they may have been seeing in other desktops: the menus. In any case, I've said my piece and as long as the menus present access to preferences more usably, I'll be happy.
*** Bug 84032 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
My take on this is that functionality is sweetly available in the panel menu, except for new categories/legacy desktop files (see 84941 for my fuller comments on this) The only usability problems is the functionality is off the menu item rather than the menu category, ie: to get to add items you need to right-click on a menu entry rather than off a category) A tool-tip would be useful so users would know that the functionallity is there.
mike i think you're missing the issue here. The issue as i see is not the applications directory but all the other special directories (start-here:, server-settings:, system-settings:, and preferences:) All apps should be launched from a sub dir off applications: these other directories create alternative and confusing menu hierarchies. Confusing because 1. they are not connected (each of them has there own uri, they have no connection) 2. because the user can not edit these directories (they are not vfolders, they are uri's that redirect to a specific folder on the system) 3. they redirect to folders which only root has access to, so users can not edit them. 4. There should only be one folder from which applications are launched, this should be the applications folder.
My thruppenceworth: The "applications:///" URI -- I don't see many people using this as a way to launch their applications, to be honest, but I think it could be a powerful menu-editing tool *if* Nautilus ever incorporates a Mac-like tree view in addition to a list and icon view. Editing the menus by dragging and dropping them around a tree view with the applications vfolder at its root would be pretty easy and intuitive, I think-- but having to do it in a single-level icon or list view as you currently do certainly isn't. Until that happens, some sort of simple menu editing dialog is a must, I think. (And/or better in-situ menu editing, although this is hard to do well-- Windoze has been trying since Win95 and it's still way too fiddly in XP).
Re: Launching from "Applications Folder" - Not very useful, on hi-res desktops, but much more useful on low-power machines (laptops, handhelds) where user won't want panel running. Of course, as it now stands, they probably won't want Nautilus running either... There's a reason nearly all handhelds and consumer electronics (and AMI BIOS) use a "launcher" view of some kind - it's simpler for someone who's using a machine casually - as opposed to becoming intimately familiar with it over a period of years - to use a view like this. Think public-access "guest" accounts, &c. I don't know how useful it is for editing, but for launching, it really is useful to the very beginners.
for the record: 1. I think that applications should be in the go menu and on the toolbar. 2. Start-here:, preferences:, system-settings:, and server-settings: should all go away as they duplicate the basic functionality of the applications:// directory (another way to launch apps, why not just have one central directory with sub directories, applications:// ?) but not the advance functionality (specifically the user must be root to edit start-here: system-settings: and server-settings:, these are not vfolders, they simply redirect to the hardwired locations in the file system, preferences is a vfolder but once again why not just use the desktop preference directory of applications:). my fundamental argument is that we should reduce the number of special uris down to something sane. My proposal would reduce them from 5 to 1, and make them more accessible for the user and easier to use.
What was the consensus on this? Personally I agree that "Start Here" should be removed (what's wrong with starting at the gnome panel, for example?) or renamed. Has this already been done in HEAD, perhaps?
there really isn't a consensus. Well all usability people tend to agree that the term "start-here" sort of sucks, but we can't really think of a better one. Some of us think that this functionality just doubles that of the menus and as such should just be killed, i'm not sure what other think. So basically there is no consensus yet. changing to future.
The merits of applications:// is nothing to do with this bug IMHO. So back on topic: Start-here is a collection of vfs locations that have not been properly integrated with gnome. Within the 2.3 time frame we are hopefully going to see the panel vastly improved. Hopefully we will get a nice new perferences top level menu. I think that start-here should be nuked. You should get to applications:// preferences:// etc... through more relevant parts of the desktop. For example the context menu of the applications menus should have a "Entire menu -> Browse" option.
*** Bug 73448 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Just want to add a "me too". I think "Start here" looks even more out of place in spatial Nautilus.
This has already been removed, hasn't it?
It has. Closing.