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Bug 531460 - Hard-drive metaphor for "save" icon is wrong
Hard-drive metaphor for "save" icon is wrong
Status: RESOLVED NOTABUG
Product: adwaita-icon-theme
Classification: Core
Component: general
2.22.x
Other Linux
: Normal normal
: ---
Assigned To: Jakub Steiner
Jakub Steiner
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
 
Reported: 2008-05-04 22:46 UTC by antistress
Modified: 2008-06-08 20:56 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: 2.21/2.22


Attachments
Open icon modified by Ian Adams (35.30 KB, image/jpeg)
2008-05-13 09:07 UTC, antistress
Details
Save icon by Ian Adams (mockup) (35.22 KB, image/jpeg)
2008-05-13 09:08 UTC, antistress
Details

Description antistress 2008-05-04 22:46:08 UTC
The disk metaphor for "save" icon was out-dated, Tango project changed it for a hard-drive metaphor which is a bad metaphor and therefore that's a bad icon.

Let me explain :

The disk metaphor had a great quality since disk was a very familiar object. But the disk metaphor had a drawback : the metaphor was based upon a piece of hardware that will be obsolete one day and that's what it is at present time. Therefore a lot of people (and more and more) has never seen a disk so it's hard to base a metaphor upon an object that a lot people have never seen... disk will be less and less familiar as time goes by.
see Aza Raskin ("The End of an Icon") http://humanized.com/weblog/2007/06/25/the_end_of_an_icon/ 

So it has been decided to replace the good old disk metaphor with a new metaphor : the hard-drive metaphor.
Which is a non-sens since hard-drive is a piece of software that is hidden in PC cases and therefore people are absolutely not familiar with that object!
(besides, it has the same drawback that the former metaphor : it will be obsolete one day since it is based on hardware).

There no worst metaphor than the hard-drive one if we consider that the object is all but familiar to people!

Therefore some people suggest a new metaphor : see Ian Adams
 suggestion ("Time for a new metaphor") http://awarmgun.net/archives/newsaveicon/
According to Ian Adams, that suggestion can be improved using colors or tweaking the arrow for better distinction between Load and Save icons http://libre-et-ouvert.blogspot.com/2008/03/pas-de-bonne-icne-sans-bonne-mtaphore.html?showComment=1207072680000#c2806747845056519579 (see that article that illustrates why colors are useful http://labs.mozilla.com/2006/11/chromatabs/ )

I'd like to see a new metaphor based upon Ian Adams suggestion.
Comment 1 Jakub Steiner 2008-05-05 13:39:46 UTC
The suggested metaphor has a far greater usability problem -- the two actions (load and save) are barely distinguishable. Adding color may help, but you still have two objects with roughly the same silhouette.
Comment 2 Lapo Calamandrei 2008-05-06 15:41:04 UTC
The new metaphor (hd) is mostly my fault, we discussed various possibilities, especially the folder+arrow one, but we ended up with what we have now, for usability issues. As jakub said using what you suggest would mean to have very similar icons for open and save actions consider also that in most applications those icons are placed side by side on the toolbar. Btw I don't think that hd+arrow metaphor is the best one, other suggestions appreciated.
Comment 3 antistress 2008-05-06 23:31:23 UTC
the proposal made by Ian Adams is only a mockup that can be improved as he said himself. He proposed for instance to modify the curve of the arrow. I proposed to make use of colour power...

Is it possible to read the discussion that led to the present icon ?
Comment 4 Lapo Calamandrei 2008-05-07 10:01:15 UTC
Whatever you do to the arrow, the folder is the main object, like it is in the open icon.

The discussion was on irc, I don't know if we have archives, probably not.
Comment 5 antistress 2008-05-13 09:07:47 UTC
Created attachment 110837 [details]
Open icon modified by Ian Adams
Comment 6 antistress 2008-05-13 09:08:57 UTC
Created attachment 110838 [details]
Save icon by Ian Adams (mockup)

i've asked Ian Adams to realize a new quick mockup based on his suggestion (related above in the bug report) to improve his own mockup to make the 2 icons more distinguisable
i attach the result of his work
Thank him
Comment 7 Jakub Steiner 2008-05-13 09:27:05 UTC
now try with icon size that's likely to be used -- toolbar is 22x22px, menus are 16x16px. You have very little room to distinguish a silhouette if you use 70% of the space with a folder. This just doesn't work.
Comment 8 Jean-François Fortin Tam 2008-05-13 14:32:32 UTC
I agree that the silhouette of those icons will be too similar at small sizes. And if you make the arrow bigger + folder smaller, then you are stuck with the problem that it's starting to look a lot like the back-forward undo-redo rotateleft-right buttons.
Comment 9 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-06 00:13:12 UTC
The proposed solution does not show the act of saving any better than the current metaphor does. In fact, I would say the current one is better, because it allows more emphasis to be placed on the arrows direction, as it is not nominally hidden by another metaphor, and is instead above the drive, and not "in" it, as with the folder.

A much better metaphor would be something that placed the emphasis on the act of storing, in some way. When you save or download, it is to store a file for later use. 
Comment 10 antistress 2008-06-06 00:39:31 UTC
"A much better metaphor would be something that placed the emphasis on the act
of storing"

You mean something like the old metaphore of File Cabinet ?
http://www.sigchi.org/chi96/proceedings/desbrief/Sullivan/kds_fg02.gif
http://images.google.com/images?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=file%20cabinet%20icon&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
http://www.ispilldrinks.com/images/tc_saveicon.gif

Also, danshultz proposes a cylinder to figure a a database/datastore
http://dshultz.blogspot.com/2007/11/12-pixel-floppy-icon-save.html

As far as i'm concerned, i'd prefer that icon : it seems like the current hard drive icon metaphor with a much higher abstraction level (the hard drive is replaced by a receptacle)
http://deutsch.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/?id=3314046&refnum=959682

By the way, here is a something close to Ian Adams proposal
http://6m-profitmethod.com/business-success/images/filing.jpg (1st line, 2nd icon from the left)
Comment 11 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-06 01:02:54 UTC
(In reply to comment #10)
> "A much better metaphor would be something that placed the emphasis on the act
> of storing"
> 
> You mean something like the old metaphore of File Cabinet ?

Old? File Cabinet == File Manager. It wouldn't make much sense as a save icon
I don't think. A mason jar would probably be a better icon.

> Also, danshultz proposes a cylinder to figure a a database/datastore
Cylinder is historically the generic metaphor to mean "database". I am
not sure an arrow pointing at a cylinder would be any better. I have
always thought that metaphor to be overly simplistic. It basically means
"this big giant thing we don't understand."

> As far as i'm concerned, i'd prefer that icon : it seems like the current hard
> drive icon metaphor with a much higher abstraction level (the hard drive is
> replaced by a receptacle)
The icon you mention here just looks the same as we have now, only very minimalistic. Perhaps what the icon would be similar to for High Contrast themes.

> By the way, here is a something close to Ian Adams proposal
I don't understand the icon you refer to here. I only get that it's a download folder icon because of the text "tag download" above it. There are way too many
elements there, and the arrow is not placed in any specific way. It's just there to be there.

Perhaps we could re-use the "downloads" emblem for save as well. It's got the necessary elements at least, and it avoids the issue of changing hardware.
Comment 12 antistress 2008-06-07 01:13:46 UTC
"The icon you mention here just looks the same as we have now, only very
minimalistic. Perhaps what the icon would be similar to for High Contrast
themes"
it avoids the hard drive metaphor since hard drive is a non familiar object and will be obsolete once as i wrote above

"Perhaps we could re-use the "downloads" emblem for save as well. It's got the
necessary elements at least, and it avoids the issue of changing hardware."
What is the thing above the arrow exactly ?
Comment 13 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-07 15:58:40 UTC
(In reply to comment #12)
> What is the thing above the arrow exactly ?

It is a progress meter.

Comment 14 antistress 2008-06-07 19:07:02 UTC
"It is a progress meter."
ok, though definitely not obvious to me
Besides, it is not connected with the download idea !
Comment 15 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-07 21:48:16 UTC
(In reply to comment #14)
> ok, though definitely not obvious to me
> Besides, it is not connected with the download idea !

What is not connected with the download idea? Save/Download are the same action on a computer. 
Comment 16 antistress 2008-06-07 23:37:51 UTC
The progress meter doesn't seem connected with the download idea at all.
Basically downloading is when i want to pick up something that is on the Web.
It is very closed to the save action indeed.
But it doesn't explain the progress bar

The progress bar means that an action is going to take time to be complete, it's not related to an action in particular

copying may take time
compiling may take time
downloading may take time
etc.

(sorry if i missed something, i'm french and may have not well understood everything)
Comment 17 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-08 03:46:40 UTC
(In reply to comment #16)
> downloading may take time

Exactly. And download just means "save from network." However, in a lot of cases, one may be saving /to/ a network as well, whether by SMB, NFS, or by some other means, especially in corporate environments. Even saving to a local disk may take time when storing significant amounts of data, or when compressed or encrypted. For example, open a 16 megapixel raw photo in GIMP, add an overlay layer, and save a copy as a PNG. You'll notice that a progess bar appears because the action takes time.

A progress bar doesn't mean the action /will/ take time, it means that it /may/ take time. Even when you download a small image (such as a site's favicon image), it may take only a millisecond to download the data, but a progress bar still appears in the browser's download dialog. It immediately jumps to 100%, but it's still there.

The icon itself doesn't need to have a progress bar there. The point is that the icon itself is more in tune with what the actual action is. The portion above the arrow could be a cloud or something else insignificant. The important part is that the arrow is pointing down and coming /from/ something. The proposed folder/arrow icons primarily hide the arrow, which is the significant portion of the metaphor. The current save icons, and the download icon, do not. They instead place the emphasis on it instead.
Comment 18 antistress 2008-06-08 10:25:15 UTC
"The point is that the icon itself is more in tune with what the actual action is. The portion above the arrow could be a cloud or something else insignificant."
i'm very surprised to read that. Maybe a white rabbit could be cool, then...

"The important part is that the arrow is pointing down and coming /from/ something"
Maybe the important thing is where the arrow is pointing to ?
In the exemple i've given above ( http://deutsch.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/?id=3314046&refnum=959682 ) (comment #10) the arrow is pointing to a receptacle.
In tango actual metaphor, arrow is pointing to the hard drive.
i fully agree that download means "save from network". The idea is to take something (which my vary) to save it locally (hard drive, usb key, floppy disk...) The local storing device could be represented by this receptacle for instance.
In comparison, the emblem proposed seems to say : do something (download) with that strange blue and white box (that you identified as a progress metter)

Another idea : home directory is usually represented with a house (see emblems) Maybe that could also be part of the metaphor to mean "locally" ?
Comment 19 antistress 2008-06-08 10:45:02 UTC
you said "The important part is that the arrow is pointing down and coming /from/
something"
i said "Maybe the important thing is where the arrow is pointing to ?"

Let me be more precise : user wants to do something with an item.
For instance he wants to download a file which means he wants to save that file from network to a local store device
The idea is :
1° something
2° to save from network to a local store device

How can we figure "saving from network to a local store device" ?
the arrow figures well that action with its direction
But the arrow could be completed in 2 way : having an item at the beginning of the arrow that should figure the item user wants to download (a) or the place where that will be store (locally) (b)

(a) Definitely that item should not be a progress meter sibce the user doesn't want to download that

(b) Since the user already knows what he wants to save and he has start an action on it (clicking on it), the next step in his mind is to save it locally. It seems logical to show that (saving locally). That is the way the current Tango metaphor works, and that could be represented by an arrow pointing to a receptacle. That way we would keep the idea behind the floppy and the hard drive metaphor and that would avoid to choose a metaphor that is not familiar (hard drive) and that will become obsolete one day (floppy, hard drive)
Comment 20 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-08 17:14:37 UTC
(In reply to comment #19)
> you said "The important part is that the arrow is pointing down and coming
> /from/
> something"
> i said "Maybe the important thing is where the arrow is pointing to ?"
> 
> Let me be more precise : user wants to do something with an item.
> For instance he wants to download a file which means he wants to save that file
> from network to a local store device
> The idea is :
> 1° something
> 2° to save from network to a local store device

The save/download operation does not require a remote source or a local destination. Both can be local or remote. Think about the corporate environment for example. Often a user will store their files on a shared network drive, and nothing will happen locally, except for the data being in local memory after being read. 

> How can we figure "saving from network to a local store device" ?
> the arrow figures well that action with its direction
> But the arrow could be completed in 2 way : having an item at the beginning of
> the arrow that should figure the item user wants to download (a) or the place
> where that will be store (locally) (b)
> 
> (a) Definitely that item should not be a progress meter sibce the user doesn't
> want to download that

It is interesting that you complain about the hard drive, and then also complain about the download icon for not having something more definite and tangible in it as the source. The user probably wants to download a document, a package, a movie, an image, or some music. I don't think all that will fit in the icon. :)
ALso, go use a Mac for a bit, and read through some of the feature bugs for Nautilus where it is requested to implement download/save progress support into the file manager. Mac already does this, showing a small progress bar next to the icon while the file is being downloaded.

> (b) Since the user already knows what he wants to save and he has start an
> action on it (clicking on it), the next step in his mind is to save it locally.

Not necessarily. Like I've said many times. It doesn't have to be saved to local storage. Also, if the user has no idea what the metaphor is, they will be unsure about clicking on it. The metaphor needs to be totally clear.

> It seems logical to show that (saving locally). That is the way the current
> Tango metaphor works, and that could be represented by an arrow pointing to a
> receptacle. That way we would keep the idea behind the floppy and the hard
> drive metaphor and that would avoid to choose a metaphor that is not familiar
> (hard drive) and that will become obsolete one day (floppy, hard drive)

The current metaphor already has a "save to recepticle" icon. That recepticle just happens to be a hard drive as well. In fact, I would say a "generic bin" would probably have the connotation that the file would end up in the user's Trash, as it is the only "recepticle bin" metaphor on the desktop currently. I think that proposal would definitely confuse a lot of people. The arrow->disk icon was already being used as a download icon for quite some time, prior to our usage of it, on the internet. It already has familiar usage.

Comment 21 antistress 2008-06-08 17:38:18 UTC
i understand your answers (and i thank you for them), except for the progress metter.
As i said above, the progress meter is not something specific to the download action.
Having it in file manager doesn't mean that it is representative.
File manager shows icons and bar and buttons and maybe progress meter but all of these are generic tools that you can find in many other programs and for many other actions.
You can't take a piece of something and assume it can figure the whole thing.
Every piece is not representative.
For instance, i wouldn't use a screw bolt to figure a car even if you can find them in a car (i guess).

i understand how hard it is to find a good metaphor but i'm pretty sure that a progress metter doesn't evoke the action of downloading. Moreover if the technology allow one day instant downloading, the action will remain downloading but there will not be any waiting time and therefore no progress meter.
Comment 22 Rodney Dawes 2008-06-08 20:56:34 UTC
The metaphor we currently have is good. It is the same metaphor that most web sites use for their "download" icons.

The proposed usage of a folder or generic bin is not better. Closing this as NOTABUG.