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Bug 517268 - D for Dvorak
D for Dvorak
Status: RESOLVED FIXED
Product: gnome-applets
Classification: Other
Component: keyboard indicator (gswitchit)
2.20.x
Other All
: Normal minor
: ---
Assigned To: gnome-applets Maintainers
gnome-applets Maintainers
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
 
Reported: 2008-02-18 18:01 UTC by Satoshi Tanabe
Modified: 2008-03-22 01:33 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: 2.19/2.20



Description Satoshi Tanabe 2008-02-18 18:01:27 UTC
I use the Dvorak layout on my machine, but occasionally I have people use my machine with the QWERTY layout.

Currently, the keyboard indicator shows "USA" and "USA2" for "U.S. English Dvorak" and "U.S. English," respectively. It's hard to tell the difference in the panel. Please use "DVO" and "QWE" (or something more intuitive) instead.

Also, as far as I remember, KDE had a nice icon behind the keyboard indicator. I think it's better for usability than simply having letters on the panel, so GNOME Panel should have it too.

- Satoshi


Other information:
Comment 1 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-02-18 20:32:37 UTC
First of all, GNOME is using whatever is provided by X (namely, base.xml file). So it is NOTGNOME. Second, Xorg (to be exact, xkeyboard-config) provides layouts on per-country basis. Since the real name of the layout is us(dvorak), the first part is taken into account. Putting only variant name would be odd, putting both would make lable too large (even abbreviated versions).

Regarding the icon - GNOME is not using flags (political reasons), so the indicator cannot indicate them. But if you google gswitchit-plugins, there is plugin which allows to use flags.
Comment 2 Satoshi Tanabe 2008-02-18 21:08:38 UTC
> it is NOTGNOME

Oh, sorry, I should have said X then.


> Putting only variant name would be odd

I don't think it's odd. Why do you think it's odd? Do you think

    USA
    USA2

for QWERTY and Dvorak is more intuitive and usable than the following?

    QWE
    DVO

Those who use the US keyboard with the Dvorak layout don't think (and don't have to think) they are using "USA" keyboard (it's too obvious). Rather they (and I) think "I'm using the QWERTY/Dvorak layout now." This piece of information is much more useful for the user. "USA" tells us nothing. I know I'm using the US keyboard. That's not my interest.

> gswitchit-plugins

Thanks for this one. I'll take a look.

- Satoshi
Comment 3 Satoshi Tanabe 2008-02-19 02:04:29 UTC
I reopen this because although the "us(dvorak)" part is done by X guys but it's GNOME who did "USA" and "USA2" right? That's what I'm complaining. I'm not interested in whether X guys "provide layouts on per-country basis." I'm interested in what I see in the panel.

If the latter part (described as "the first part is taken into account") is also done by X guys please tell me so. I'll tell them to fix.

- Satoshi
Comment 4 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-02-23 02:27:33 UTC
Yes it is GNOME (to be exact, libgnomekbd). But for GNOME it is more important to distinguish layouts, countries ("USA" vs "Rus" vs "Ger") than variants for the same layout. And putting BOTH layout and variant would make the label inappropriately large.

In theory, it would be possible to introduce the heuristics "If the layouts are same, show only the variants as labels" - but in that case I do not know how to process the situation with 3 layouts like this:
- us(basic)
- us(dvorak
- ru

What would I show in labels?

And the last but not least, there is another problem. In base.xml there are short descriptions for layouts ("USA", "Fra, "GBr" ...") - they are used as labels. But there are no short descriptions for variants. So there is no place for strings like "QWE" and "DVO" currently.

BTW, "them" is also me - I am maintaining xkeyboard-config and base.xml as part of it.
Comment 5 Satoshi Tanabe 2008-02-23 02:56:11 UTC
First I'd like to thank you for taking this issue sincerely.

> "If the layouts are same, show only the variants as labels"

Sounds like a good idea.

> but in that case I do not know how to
> process the situation with 3 layouts like this:
> - us(basic)
> - us(dvorak
> - ru
> What would I show in labels?

How about...

  - QWE
  - DVO
  - RUS

2 variants for the same layout (in this case, US) are detected, and in that case the variant names -- QWE and DVO -- are shown for that layout. What's the problem?

I can understand that there are currently no short strings for variants. Can they be added then? (You said "currently", so it sounds like repairable)

- Satoshi
Comment 6 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-02-23 21:22:20 UTC
> How about...

I do not like that at all. It is a mixture of layouts and variants, looks ugly and unconsistent.

> Can they be added then?

Sure, as long as we are within FOSS, nothing is unchangeable. But in this particular case I do not see a good reason. The 'DVO' label is very unclear - it can be related to any layout which has dvorak variant (there are several of them).
Comment 7 Satoshi Tanabe 2008-02-23 21:41:35 UTC
> ugly and unconsistent

It may be true, but I think "USA" "USA2" is even uglier. Plus, it doesn't matter if it's a mixture of layouts and variants. What matters is whether it's more usable or not. Please ask yourself again: Do you really really think

    USA
    USA2

for QWERTY and Dvorak is more intuitive and usable than

    QWE
    DVO

for Qwerty and Dvorak?

> 'DVO' label is very unclear

First, (again) it doesn't matter the string 'DVO' is unclear or not because it is at least *clearer* than the current string -- "USA."

Second, probably more than 99% of people who use any of the Dvorak variants are likely to be using one and only one variant of Dvorak, so it doesn't matter whether there are several variants of Dvorak. In other words, in most cases when they see "DVO" they know what "DVO" means, whereas "USA" gives them/me no clue.

- Satoshi
Comment 8 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-02-24 12:08:23 UTC
> but I think "USA" "USA2" is even uglier.
Well, to me they look same ugly (and same level of usability) - but at least the current solution is consistent;)

> Second, probably more than 99% of people who use any of the Dvorak variants are
likely to be using one and only one variant of Dvorak

Actually, this is what confuses me most. I strongly believe 99% of users would never use two variants of the same layout together (in one GNOME account). Why would they?

I reread your original bug description - why are multiple people using same account in GNOME? First of all, it is against any sane security policies. I would not consider that use case as something I'd put a lot of effort into.
Comment 9 Satoshi Tanabe 2008-02-24 16:28:47 UTC
> the current solution is consistent

I argued consistency doesn't matter here (read above for its reasoning). Usability matters more (read above for its reasoning). You are not responding to my argument.

> same level of usability

So, that means you think

    USA
    USA2

for QWERTY and Dvorak is as intuitive and usable as

    QWE
    DVO

for Qwerty and Dvorak. Ask people around you about these two options and which they think is more usable and intuitive. They wouldn't say they are at the same level. They would say you are wrong.

> Why would they

Suppose two or more students are working on a project using one laptop. Why should they logout / login again and again just to change the keyboard layout when it can easily be done in one click? Many non-QWERTY users would have this kind of situations (with families, friends, etc).

I'm not talking about security policies. I'm talking about the unusable default strings that appear on the panel (and why you should fix it). 

> I would not consider that use case as something I'd put a lot of effort into

This is probably what you wanted to say from the start. You don't want to work on this, _even_if_ it improves usability, right? But you already put a lot of effort into the keyboard Indicator in the first place, knowing that this is completely meaningless and useless to most people (because they use only QWERTY, and they often don't even know there are other layouts). This is a niche program from the start. Why not improve a bit?

But since you don't seem to like usability arguments, I'll end here. Thanks for reading.

- Satoshi
Comment 10 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-02-24 19:43:08 UTC
> for QWERTY and Dvorak is as intuitive and usable

Ok, may be it is slightly less intuitive. You win at this point. But it does not affact my major point: there is no sane supportable use case.

> Suppose two or more students are working on a project using one laptop. Why
should they logout / login again and again just to change the keyboard layout
when it can easily be done in one click? 

First of all, quick user switching (withouth logging in/out) is available in GNOME for ages. And I can answer your question "why": when more than one person work on a project, it always HELPS to know exactly who did what. Multiple people using one desktop account is a very bad practice in all circumstances.

> You don't want to work on this, _even_if_ it improves usability, right?

I do not want _inconsistent_ solution based on some heuristics. If you have some solution which would be within HIG, usable, consistent for 100% users - I am willing to work on it. May be, it could involve some gconf keys (which would switch displaying variants/layouts). Or you could contribute to gswitchit-plugins - which are not part of gnome and can do anything against HIG (like showing flags). The standard GNOME solution ("out of the box") has to be consistent, even if it is slightly less usable in exotic situations.

> knowing that this is completely meaningless and useless to most people. 

Only minority of the people in the world are using QWERTY (if you mean default us layout). Even languages based on Latin alphabet often change QWERTY significantly - but there are many languages which does not use Latin at all.
Comment 11 David Feuer 2008-03-15 15:38:17 UTC
I'm a big fan of options.  Is there any way to let the user choose a nickname for each layout?
Comment 12 David Feuer 2008-03-16 12:07:31 UTC
Another thing:  Two people may very well want to use the same account to work on a project when they're actually in the same room at the same time.  This is not terribly unusual.
Comment 13 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-03-16 21:41:32 UTC
> Is there any way to let the user choose a nickname
for each layout?

vi /usr/share/X11/xkb/rules/base.xml

> This is not terribly unusual.

Next thing you'll ask is two passwords for one account, two photos/avatars, two switchable desktop themes etc... I am not sure this would be officially supported use case.
Comment 14 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-03-19 09:08:54 UTC
The resolution of this problem will be simple. I am working on the new plugin (in gswitchit_plugins) which would allow to specify ANY labels, whatever user might want (including names of his pets). I hope it should be enough for everybody.
Comment 15 Sergey V. Udaltsov 2008-03-22 01:33:00 UTC
With new release of gswitchit-plugins, you can specify any labels.