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Bug 310186 - Path->Stroke Crashes GIMP
Path->Stroke Crashes GIMP
Status: RESOLVED DUPLICATE of bug 314529
Product: GIMP
Classification: Other
Component: General
2.2.x
Other Windows
: Normal critical
: ---
Assigned To: GIMP Bugs
GIMP Bugs
: 314026 314303 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
 
Reported: 2005-07-13 01:22 UTC by Dan McKinnon
Modified: 2008-01-15 12:57 UTC
See Also:
GNOME target: ---
GNOME version: ---



Description Dan McKinnon 2005-07-13 01:22:38 UTC
Distribution/Version: Windows XP Home Edition

When I goto use the Stroke tool it crashes when I try to exit the Stroke 
Dialog.  This includes after trying to click "stroke" or "cancel"

Using Windows XP on a 900mhz AMD Duron Processor with 320 mb of Ram.  GIMP 2.2 
(binary stable release for Windows)

This bug doesn't appear on my Averetec Laptop,  It's a 1.2Ghz Intel Centerion 
processor.
Comment 1 Sven Neumann 2005-07-13 14:37:33 UTC
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean when you say you are trying to exit
the Stroke dialog. Could you try to explain that?
Comment 2 Dan McKinnon 2005-07-14 01:44:58 UTC
When I close the dialog box, via the "Cancel" or "Stroke" button the program
crashes.  
Comment 3 Michael Schumacher 2005-07-14 08:26:46 UTC
What exact versions of GIMP and GTK+ do you use?
Comment 4 Dan McKinnon 2005-07-14 11:49:59 UTC
GTK+ 2.0, Gimp 2.2.8
I'm still using GTK+ 2.0 and I downgraded to 2.2.0 and the stroke tool works
perfectly.  Furthermore,  I tried re-installing GIMP 2.2.8 and GTK+ 2.0 and I
was able to reproduce the error exactly the same way.  So it's probably
something recent that has to do with GIMP.
Comment 5 Michael Schumacher 2005-07-14 12:41:39 UTC
If the list of installed software really tells you that "GTK+ 2.0" is installed,
you've most likely got an incompatible version of it - we're now at GTK+ 2.6.8.
Comment 6 weskaggs 2005-07-14 15:46:47 UTC
What we really need here is a more complete description of what you do that
causes the crash.  It would be very helpful if you could explain with more
details, i.e., something like "step 1: create a new path with 2 points.  step 2:
select Edit->Stroke Path from the menu.  etc".  At this point we don't even know
what you are trying to stroke.

Incidentally, in GIMPish, "stroke" is not a tool -- tools are things you find in
the Tools menu or the Toolbox.  It is a command that brings up a dialog.  (This
isn't important, I'm just being pedantic.)
Comment 7 Dan McKinnon 2005-07-15 00:01:33 UTC
Okay as far as GTK+ versions go,  I simply went to c:\progra~1\common~1\GTK and
it said 2.0,  Here's a detailed account of how to produce this error on my computer.
NOTE: this does not occur on my labtop,  just my AMD Duron.

Step 1: Install GTK+ v2.6.8 found at http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html
Step 2: Install GIMP 2.2.8 found at http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html
Step 3: Start GIMP
Step 4: Start a New Image (any size)
Step 5: Create a path, ANY path.
Step 6: Go to the path dialog and click "stroke"
Step 7: Click on either "Stroke" or "Cancel"

The program now crashes immediately when you hit "stroke" or "cancel".
Unfortunately I no longer have 2.2.8 installed so I cannot provide you with the
dump it gives you afterwards.
Comment 8 Michael Schumacher 2005-07-15 13:42:15 UTC
Hmmmm - could this be a general problem with 2.2.8 on Durons (how does stroking
differ from manual painting code-wise)? However, we haven't received any reports
about this so far, have we?
Comment 9 Michael Schumacher 2005-07-21 21:31:59 UTC
Let's go back to UNCONFIRMED
Comment 10 Dan McKinnon 2005-07-23 00:30:14 UTC
It's more than likely a Duron thing.
I don't know anything about the architecture,  but lots of programs consistantly
crash in the same fashion, with no good reason.

This problem does /not/ occur with the previous stable release, 2.0.
Not to say that 2.0 is not crashing at all.  I would like to blame this one on
the Duron processor and consider it unfixable, or at least out of project scope
to fix.  Honestly if it was available for every nit-picky processor, it would
become impossible to release new versions.
Comment 11 Michael Schumacher 2005-07-23 08:28:27 UTC
Maybe it is a Windows thing - Microsoft already messed up Hyperthreading
support. Did you check MSDN for articles about Duron-specific problems?
Comment 12 weskaggs 2005-07-25 15:11:16 UTC
The fact is that none of us have any idea what the problem is.  Unfortunately,
what is needed now is a stack trace at the time of the crash, and that isn't so
easy to get in Windows.  Short of this, the thing most likely to make a
difference is to try a different GTK+ version, but really any suggestion is just
a pot-shot in the dark at this point.
Comment 13 Michael Schumacher 2005-08-01 08:12:54 UTC
Found something in the MSDN Knowledge base (about MechWarrior, but the AMD stuff
they are linking to is generic):
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;310630#XSLTH3159121122120121120120

The pages they're linking to don't eixst anymore, but you should be able to get
updates from
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_871,00.html
Comment 14 Woody Nightshade 2005-08-16 09:22:36 UTC
I am also getting this problem, with a laptop that has a Celeron processor.  It
is also crashing hwen I try to open a new image.

How can I help?
Comment 15 Woody Nightshade 2005-08-16 09:24:02 UTC
Sorry - my information on versions and process are the same as in comment #7
(http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=310186#c7)
Comment 16 Michael Schumacher 2005-08-16 15:34:50 UTC
Woody, did you also get GTK+ from the same place? If not, and especially if you
did get it from GAIM, this is the known bug 312872 and most likely not related.
Comment 17 Woody Nightshade 2005-08-17 15:41:02 UTC
I got my GTK from the GIMP-win sourceforge page.  I am re-installing it to see
if it has any effect.
Comment 18 Woody Nightshade 2005-08-17 15:53:44 UTC
And in fact, re-installing the GTK from the win-GIMP site
(http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html) solved both crashing problems.  I
MUST have gotten my GTK from GAIM.  Thanks so much for your help!
Comment 19 Simon Budig 2005-08-20 13:09:02 UTC
*** Bug 314026 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 20 Sven Neumann 2005-08-22 13:38:42 UTC
If this is fixed by updating GTK+, shouldn't this report be closed then?
Comment 21 Michael Schumacher 2005-08-22 14:23:30 UTC
The problem is that two different symptoms have been mixed in this bug, the
original one apparently isn't fixed yet.
Comment 22 Sven Neumann 2005-08-24 10:53:57 UTC
*** Bug 314303 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 23 Sven Neumann 2005-08-27 00:18:57 UTC

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 314529 ***
Comment 24 Sven Neumann 2005-09-11 17:12:13 UTC
*** Bug 314529 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 25 Philippe Verdy 2005-10-04 08:11:34 UTC
Don't close that bug! The GIMP still crashes on Windows XP when drawing the 
most simple strokes. This occurs with The GIMP 2.2.8 official release 
downloaded from the www.gimp.org website, and with the latest official GTK+ 
release (wasn't GTK initially developed as a library for The GIMP itself?).

I have the same crashes on an Intel Pentium III, an AMD Athlon XP 1800+, and a 
AMD Turion (the new mobile version of the Athlon).

If this is a bug in GTK+, then it must be corrected there. For now The GIMP is 
unusable on Windows. Certainly this is an issue in the support of the DirectX 
API in GTK+, for example assuming hardware capabilities that are not supported 
(in some "optimized" functions).

Note: the AMD Turion fully supports SSE, SSE2, 3DNow.

And like the recent models of Athlon (not supported by most Intel Pentium 
processors), it also features the memory page write protection bit (protection 
against some classes of virus that exploit buffer overflows to overwrite the 
running code) as supported by Windows XP SP2 and documented by Microsoft. 
Beware of self-generated native code: the code generator must be specially 
adapted to allocate a writable memory block that must be changed later to 
executable non-writable mode. See MSDN about the new Windows memory management 
API.
Comment 26 Joe 2005-10-04 20:20:16 UTC
When it started crashing for me was after I tried installing the newer version
of GTK+. Just recently, I uninstalled GTK+ and gimp completly, then installed
the newest version of GTK+ and then I installed gimp again. Now it is working
fine, but it still crashes sometimes with other things which may just be my
computer acting unstable as it usually does.
Comment 27 Matt 2005-10-06 20:48:05 UTC
I'm having the same problem. I'm running Windows XP Pro on a Pentium 4 processor
with hyper-threading enabled. GTK+ 2.6.9 rev a and GIMP 2.2.8. Steps to recreate
problem: File > New > (width 420, height 300) OK > Rectangle selection > Edit >
Stroke Selection > Stroke. Here's what the Microsoft error tells me:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>
<DATABASE>
<EXE NAME="gimp-2.2.exe" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_PRIVACY">
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="bzip2.dll" SIZE="67584" CHECKSUM="0xD90E077F"
BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.2.1531" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.2.1531"
PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.2.1531" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Bzip2: file compressor"
COMPANY_NAME="Bzip2" PRODUCT_NAME="Bzip2" FILE_VERSION="1.0.2.1531"
ORIGINAL_FILENAME="bzip2.dll" INTERNAL_NAME="bzip2" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="© 2004
Julian Seward &lt;jseward@acm.org&gt;" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0"
VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x18930"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.2.1531"
UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.2.1531" LINK_DATE="06/07/2004 22:05:46"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/07/2004 22:05:46" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States)
[0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="bzip2.exe" SIZE="116736" CHECKSUM="0x967B1530"
BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.2.1619" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.2.1619"
PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.2.1619" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Bzip2: file compressor"
COMPANY_NAME="Bzip2" PRODUCT_NAME="Bzip2" FILE_VERSION="1.0.2.1619"
ORIGINAL_FILENAME="bzip2.exe" INTERNAL_NAME="bzip2" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="© 2004
Julian Seward &lt;jseward@acm.org&gt;" VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0"
VERFILEOS="0x4" VERFILETYPE="0x1" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x229D5"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="1.0.2.1619"
UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="1.0.2.1619" LINK_DATE="05/09/2005 17:53:15"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="05/09/2005 17:53:15" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States)
[0x409]" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="gimp-2.2.exe" SIZE="3424256" CHECKSUM="0x49FBCA6E"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x353455" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 18:15:26" UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 18:15:26" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="gimp-win-remote.exe" SIZE="31744" CHECKSUM="0x60C13C41"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xECF8" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="05/09/2005 17:53:16" UPTO_LINK_DATE="05/09/2005 17:53:16" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libart_lgpl_2-2.dll" SIZE="95232" CHECKSUM="0xBD7150DD"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x1C907" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:19" UPTO_LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:19" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libcroco-0.6-3.dll" SIZE="273125" CHECKSUM="0x8163E928"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x49FC6" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="04/09/2005 18:34:33" UPTO_LINK_DATE="04/09/2005 18:34:33" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libexif-10.dll" SIZE="233947" CHECKSUM="0x7CF34468"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x3C2E1" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="05/02/2005 19:45:36" UPTO_LINK_DATE="05/02/2005 19:45:36" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimp-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="226645" CHECKSUM="0x4B8F6F78"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x43113" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:19:32" UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:19:32" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpbase-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="82797"
CHECKSUM="0x43FB8C45" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x1A4B3"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 17:41:30"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 17:41:30" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpcolor-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="56129"
CHECKSUM="0x1340B054" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x1385A"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 17:41:57"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 17:41:57" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpmath-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="28360"
CHECKSUM="0xBD0E65D6" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x16DC5"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 17:42:11"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 17:42:11" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpmodule-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="32710"
CHECKSUM="0x90A277A2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x14525"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:18:32"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:18:32" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpthumb-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="53083"
CHECKSUM="0x6C2958C2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xE7C4"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:18:42"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:18:42" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpui-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="111898"
CHECKSUM="0x150B53ED" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x23480"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:19:57"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:19:57" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgimpwidgets-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="1046866"
CHECKSUM="0x5E7A641" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x10C0A3"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:19:09"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/29/2005 22:19:09" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libgsf-1-1.dll" SIZE="194237" CHECKSUM="0x59168B46"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x32C33" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="04/09/2005 18:27:37" UPTO_LINK_DATE="04/09/2005 18:27:37" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="liblcms-1.dll" SIZE="135680" CHECKSUM="0xD336740A"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x241CE" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:19" UPTO_LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:19" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="librsvg-2-2.dll" SIZE="229273" CHECKSUM="0x8AF2DD74"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x3E2AF" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="04/09/2005 18:46:10" UPTO_LINK_DATE="04/09/2005 18:46:10" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libwmf-0-2-7.dll" SIZE="1072640" CHECKSUM="0x2D1A76A4"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x11591D" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" UPTO_LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libwmflite-0-2-7.dll" SIZE="103936"
CHECKSUM="0x4DC63BA9" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x274FA"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libxml2.dll" SIZE="867328" CHECKSUM="0xE625B446"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xDE013" LINKER_VERSION="0x20006"
LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" UPTO_LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libXpm-noX4.dll" SIZE="41984" CHECKSUM="0x74BEE0B3"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x10122" LINKER_VERSION="0x10000"
LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" UPTO_LINK_DATE="01/05/2005 22:04:20" />
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="minigzip.exe" SIZE="4608" CHECKSUM="0x7C9DFFDA"
MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0x9512" LINKER_VERSION="0x0"
LINK_DATE="05/09/2005 17:53:16" UPTO_LINK_DATE="05/09/2005 17:53:16" />
</EXE>
<EXE NAME="libglib-2.0-0.dll" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_THISFILEONLY">
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="libglib-2.0-0.dll" SIZE="663547" CHECKSUM="0x730F3F3E"
BIN_FILE_VERSION="2.6.6.0" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="2.6.6.0" PRODUCT_VERSION="2.6.6"
FILE_DESCRIPTION="GLib" COMPANY_NAME="The GLib developer community"
PRODUCT_NAME="GLib" FILE_VERSION="2.6.6.0" ORIGINAL_FILENAME="libglib-2.0-0.dll"
INTERNAL_NAME="libglib-2.0-0" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="Copyright © 1995-1997 Peter
Mattis, Spencer Kimball and Josh MacDonald. Modified by the GLib Team and others
1997-2004." VERFILEDATEHI="0x0" VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x4"
VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32" PE_CHECKSUM="0xA6436"
LINKER_VERSION="0x10000" UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="2.6.6.0"
UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="2.6.6.0" LINK_DATE="08/01/2005 18:55:35"
UPTO_LINK_DATE="08/01/2005 18:55:35" VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States)
[0x409]" />
</EXE>
<EXE NAME="kernel32.dll" FILTER="GRABMI_FILTER_THISFILEONLY">
    <MATCHING_FILE NAME="kernel32.dll" SIZE="930816" CHECKSUM="0xF60887C3"
BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.1560" BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.1560"
PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.1560" FILE_DESCRIPTION="Windows NT BASE API Client
DLL" COMPANY_NAME="Microsoft Corporation" PRODUCT_NAME="Microsoft® Windows®
Operating System" FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.1560 (xpsp2_gdr.040517-1325)"
ORIGINAL_FILENAME="kernel32" INTERNAL_NAME="kernel32" LEGAL_COPYRIGHT="©
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved." VERFILEDATEHI="0x0"
VERFILEDATELO="0x0" VERFILEOS="0x40004" VERFILETYPE="0x2" MODULE_TYPE="WIN32"
PE_CHECKSUM="0xEC3A9" LINKER_VERSION="0x50001"
UPTO_BIN_FILE_VERSION="5.1.2600.1560" UPTO_BIN_PRODUCT_VERSION="5.1.2600.1560"
LINK_DATE="06/17/2004 17:58:35" UPTO_LINK_DATE="06/17/2004 17:58:35"
VER_LANGUAGE="English (United States) [0x409]" />
</EXE>
</DATABASE>
Comment 28 Joe 2005-10-06 22:02:29 UTC
Well, if you completly uninstall GTK _AND_ GIMP, and then reinstall GTK, and
reinstall GIMP then your problem should be fixed.
Comment 29 Matt 2005-10-07 00:00:35 UTC
I was having this same problem and this is what I did. I uninstalled GIMP, GAIM,
and GTK and restarted in that order. I went to <a
href="http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html">http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html</a>
downloaded both GTK+ 2.6.9 and GIMP 2.6.8. I installed GTK first then GIMP. I
tried to use the stroke feature and it worked!
Comment 30 Joe 2005-10-07 00:11:54 UTC
I didn't uninstall GAIM, but it still worked. I don't think that it is a problem
with all GTK apps, Maybe its just a conflict with GIMP and GTK. The stable
releases are still much more stable than the betas. (Obviosly)
Comment 31 Cosmo Fur 2007-01-11 23:33:27 UTC
Can this problem been re-introduced with the latest GTK's? Haveing it occure with a fresh install with GTK+2.10.6 on three diffrent computers (XP profesional and home editions) 

I don't have any stack dumps but to re-create, based on my tests.

New image 1000x1000
Use drag to copy at least 3 jpg's of 500x300 size or larger to new image.
Use Text tool to enter several text boxes. Font doens't seem to matter.
Dragging to postion the text boxes seems to increase the frequency of the problem
as does any editing of the images. 

Use selection tool to select a region. (think cartoon speach bubbles)

Select 'Stroke Selection' and stroke.

You will typicaly be able to 'stroke' 1 - 5 times before it crashes.

I've uninstalled and re-installed the 'stable' version of GTK and Gimp multiple times and get the same behavior on several diffrent machines. (Hadware varies but all less than 1-2 year old hardware with newish video cards and upto date drivers)

I've been able to 'work' around this by saving aver every stroke. Otherwise Gimp seems stable as long as I don't use the 'Stroke Selection' tool.

Thanks.
Comment 32 Raphaël Quinet 2007-05-24 11:29:23 UTC
Note to "Cosmo Fur" or anyone still on the CC list for this bug report.  It has been marked as a duplicate of bug #314529 almost two years ago (see comment #23) so please go there if you still have questions.