**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 16 12:30:57 2004

Jul 16 12:30:57 -->	You are now talking on #ui-review
Jul 16 12:30:58 ---	Monkey gives channel operator status to clarkbw
Jul 16 12:40:10 -->	Frimost (~Frimost@220.Red-81-36-233.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 12:52:24 -->	calum (~cb114949@amfea-proxy-2.sun.com) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 12:55:58 -->	martink (~martin@pD9EB2D8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 12:58:20 -->	Ryan (~ryan@67-98-12-250.cpe.fastfreedom.net) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 13:00:08 <--	Ryan has quit (Leaving)
Jul 16 13:02:23 -->	Ryan (~ryan@67-98-12-250.cpe.fastfreedom.net) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 13:02:31 <--	Ryan has quit (Leaving)
Jul 16 13:09:40 ---	clarkbw has changed the topic to: gpdf ui-review
Jul 16 13:09:53 <clarkbw>	hello
Jul 16 13:10:19 <martink>	hi
Jul 16 13:10:42 <clarkbw>	how's it going martin?
Jul 16 13:12:02 <martink>	I had the last lecture for this semester today :-)
Jul 16 13:12:08 <martink>	I hope that means more time for gpdf
Jul 16 13:12:28 -->	danw (~danw@130.57.22.69) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 13:12:29 ---	Monkey gives channel operator status to danw
Jul 16 13:12:33 <clarkbw>	yea!
Jul 16 13:12:48 <danw>	yea me?
Jul 16 13:12:50 ---	clarkbw gives channel operator status to calum martink
Jul 16 13:13:00 <clarkbw>	heh, sure :)
Jul 16 13:13:12 <clarkbw>	it was actually yea for martin being done for the semester
Jul 16 13:13:36 <--	maxcow (~duarte@a213-22-22-68.netcabo.pt) has left #ui-review
Jul 16 13:14:13 <clarkbw>	so lets get this started
Jul 16 13:14:34 <clarkbw>	martink, what's been happening with gpdf so far?
Jul 16 13:14:42 <clarkbw>	i.e. features and fixes
Jul 16 13:15:22 <martink>	uh, not much since gnome 2.6, mostly fixes, e.g.
Jul 16 13:15:42 <martink>	as in rendering fixes for images
Jul 16 13:15:54 <martink>	crashers with thumbnails
Jul 16 13:16:19 <martink>	but it was updated to include Xpdf 3.00 code (it was based on 2.02 for a year)
Jul 16 13:16:30 <clarkbw>	ah
Jul 16 13:16:33 <clarkbw>	what are the outline view improvements?
Jul 16 13:17:01 <martink>	I see you're looking at the NEWS file
Jul 16 13:17:06 <clarkbw>	heh, yup
Jul 16 13:17:21 <clarkbw>	you guys do really well updating that stuff
Jul 16 13:17:45 <martink>	It used to load everything at once, slowing startup down. Now it's populated in the background
Jul 16 13:18:03 <martink>	I'm not sure if that was a 2.7 or a "2.6.1" improvement
Jul 16 13:19:18 <martink>	there can be http links in the outline. These are supported now if I read the ChangeLog correctly
Jul 16 13:19:42 <danw>	my gpdf says it's version 0.131. what's the current version?
Jul 16 13:20:01 <calum>	mine says 2.7.2, built today...
Jul 16 13:20:08 <martink>	0.131 is the one from GNOME 2.6.0 (with the evil thumbnail crasher :-()
Jul 16 13:20:32 <martink>	yes, 2.7.2 is the latest
Jul 16 13:21:11 <martink>	release team prefers x.y.z numbers...
Jul 16 13:21:24 *	danw builds...
Jul 16 13:22:38 <martink>	what I really want to fix next are the problems with openoffice.org pdfs (is that relevant to ui-review?)
Jul 16 13:24:09 *	clarkbw isn't sure what the problems are with oo.o pdfs
Jul 16 13:24:45 <clarkbw>	one of the things i wanted to work on was the outline view
Jul 16 13:25:06 <martink>	gpdf shows only squares or random letters for most ooo-generated pdfs
Jul 16 13:25:42 <calum>	ah, wondered why I'd been seeing those :)
Jul 16 13:25:43 <martink>	what has to be changed in the outline view?
Jul 16 13:25:56 <martink>	calum: and it's not oo.o's fault
Jul 16 13:26:25 <calum>	martink: yeah, I guessed that, they loaded okay in <cough>acroread</cough>
Jul 16 13:26:36 <clarkbw>	here are some thoughts on the outline view
Jul 16 13:26:51 <clarkbw>	just off the top of my head playing around with it last night
Jul 16 13:26:54 *	calum doesn't have any PDFs with bookmarks that he can chip in here
Jul 16 13:27:51 <martink>	unfortunately remi, who wrote the outline view, is not here (I forwarded the ui-review mails too late)
Jul 16 13:29:47 <danw>	so what's the story with the Pages sidebar? why does it show little pieces of blank paper?
Jul 16 13:30:11 <clarkbw>	danw, it should show previews of the pages
Jul 16 13:30:25 <clarkbw>	but it doesn't seem to size itself to fix the 2 column view
Jul 16 13:30:34 <martink>	danw: it was labeled "thumbnails view", but currently it show thumbnails only if the pdf contains them prerendered 
Jul 16 13:30:38 <danw>	ah
Jul 16 13:30:55 <danw>	because it popped up a progress dialog claiming it was generating them when i started up...
Jul 16 13:31:33 <danw>	the two-column thing is weird too. i guess it makes a little sense if you think of it in terms of left and right pages, except that they're reversed since page 1 is normally a right page
Jul 16 13:32:27 <calum>	yeah, although I'd just expected it to draw as many columns as I had room for, which it doesn't
Jul 16 13:32:31 <martink>	hmm, I think we have the two column thing because acroread does it
Jul 16 13:32:55 <martink>	calum: actually acroread does it that way
Jul 16 13:33:00 <clarkbw>	yes it would be best if it just determined the best fit
Jul 16 13:33:04 <danw>	oh, it's not generating the thumbnails, it's just showing me the progress as it scans and determines that they aren't pregenerated.
Jul 16 13:33:05 <calum>	maybe that's why I expected it :)
Jul 16 13:33:07 <clarkbw>	for one or two columns
Jul 16 13:33:35 <calum>	maybe it should show nothing rather than blank pages if there are no thumbnails...?  although the navigation side effects are quite useful I suppose...
Jul 16 13:33:39 <danw>	is multiple columns of pages actually useful or would it be better to just make bigger thumbnails? or is the thumbnail size predetermined
Jul 16 13:33:54 <danw>	it could just have a textual list of pages, like OS X Preview
Jul 16 13:34:10 <martink>	if the file contains thumbnails, they have a fixed size
Jul 16 13:34:10 <danw>	or chapter headings
Jul 16 13:34:33 <martink>	Preview and acroread (since 4.x I think) just render the thumbnails on the fly
Jul 16 13:35:04 *	martink played with Preview only for 30 minutes at CeBIT
Jul 16 13:35:50 <danw>	oh, right, i forgot preview does thumbnailing, because i turned it off because it's slow
Jul 16 13:36:31 <clarkbw>	the auto-thumbnailing would be nice except where it's slow, simple text headers would probably be better
Jul 16 13:37:20 <martink>	calum: the mouse navigation (via thumbnails) is flaky sometimes
Jul 16 13:37:30 <danw>	they could be separate pages. bookmarks, pages, and thumbnails, and it wouldn't start rendering thumbnails unless you showed the thumbnail pane
Jul 16 13:37:59 <clarkbw>	martink, the navigation should change off clicks, not dragging the view around
Jul 16 13:40:24 <clarkbw>	i would also say the bookmarks view shouldn't be the default display unless there are bookmarks
Jul 16 13:41:23 <danw>	clarkbw: the default view is whatever you were using last time
Jul 16 13:41:34 <martink>	"navigation should change off clicks" navigation with the Pages side pane, right?
Jul 16 13:42:16 <clarkbw>	danw, is it?  during testing it seemed to always show bookmarks for me even though i never wanted it
Jul 16 13:42:57 <danw>	for me (having built from cvs 10 minutes ago), when i start up, it's in the same view i was in when i quit (bookmarks, thumbnails, or no sidebar at all)
Jul 16 13:43:08 <martink>	clarkbw: that wasn't working for a time, but it should now
Jul 16 13:43:20 <danw>	the default window size is too small
Jul 16 13:45:05 <martink>	danw: yes, eog resizes the window after loading a file. Would be nice if gpdf did that, too
Jul 16 13:45:40 <calum>	hmm, maybe... although I kind of prefer apps to start up the same size and position I left them last time...
Jul 16 13:45:49 <danw>	ew. well, resizing on its own is icky, but if you pass a pdf file on the command line, it would be nice if the window was the right size for it when it opened
Jul 16 13:46:03 <calum>	what's the "right size" if your setting is "best fit", though?
Jul 16 13:46:10 <calum>	:)
Jul 16 13:46:24 <martink>	heh
Jul 16 13:46:30 <danw>	"best fit" isn't a setting, it's an action
Jul 16 13:46:57 <martink>	danw: that too, there are requests to change that
Jul 16 13:47:23 <calum>	ah, so it is... not so keen on that...
Jul 16 13:48:31 <martink>	calum: so you want to make it a setting too
Jul 16 13:48:43 <calum>	yeah, makes more sense to me anyway...
Jul 16 13:48:59 <calum>	(I think that's how acroread works, or am I mis-remenbering...?)
Jul 16 13:49:01 <danw>	do we have guidelines for cursors? i feel like the cursor in the main window show be a grabbing hand, not an arrow. but maybe that's os x talking
Jul 16 13:49:15 <danw>	calum: yes, acroread works that way
Jul 16 13:49:41 <danw>	s/show/should/
Jul 16 13:51:07 <martink>	the hand cursor doesn't come with X. I haven't added the code to load one from disk.
Jul 16 13:51:43 <danw>	ok
Jul 16 13:52:01 <calum>	I think the arrows are fine, actually... consistent with moving other things (like windows), and less risk of offending some culture or other with untoward hand gestures :)
Jul 16 13:52:29 <danw>	the 4-way-arrows are fine, i meant the normal diagonal pointer cursor before you click
Jul 16 13:52:35 <calum>	ah right
Jul 16 13:52:41 <danw>	it doesn't suggest anything in particular
Jul 16 13:52:45 <calum>	true
Jul 16 13:52:49 <danw>	maybe if it was always the 4-way arrow
Jul 16 13:53:04 <calum>	yep, that would work I think...
Jul 16 13:53:21 <danw>	(not suggesting anything in particular is bad since acroread and preview have several different cursor modes [grab, select rectangle, select text])
Jul 16 13:53:51 <martink>	oh. That's still in the Pages view. I think with diagonal arrows it's supposed to resize the view...
Jul 16 13:53:52 <clarkbw>	martink, just a quick note, the desktop file is called 'PDF Viewer', the app title should match that
Jul 16 13:55:08 <martink>	clarkbw: that's the gnome_program_init argument?
Jul 16 13:55:10 <danw>	is "Save a Copy" used enough that it deserves a spot in the toolbar? (the toolbar is pretty long...)
Jul 16 13:55:26 <clarkbw>	martink, i believe so
Jul 16 13:55:37 <clarkbw>	or you could do a set_title() :)
Jul 16 13:55:59 <calum>	danw: I was thinking the same earlier...
Jul 16 13:57:05 <calum>	the ultra-wide toolbar has always been my main gripe with gpdf... I might even move the "[xx] of nnn" bit down to the status bar too, if that were possible, that's where I usually look for page numbers...
Jul 16 13:57:19 <danw>	yeah
Jul 16 13:57:54 <martink>	I didn't care about the toolbar width
Jul 16 13:58:21 <martink>	calum: in the status bar and still editable?
Jul 16 13:58:32 <calum>	martink: yeah... a little odd, I know :/
Jul 16 13:58:34 <danw>	the hig says you should be able to turn off the toolbar completely, right? it would be nice to be able to reclaim that vertical space
Jul 16 13:59:39 <calum>	not sure about using the Undo/Redo icons for Back and Forward either, that could be a little confusing... (I've only just noticed that's what they're for, and I've been looking at it all afternoon)...
Jul 16 14:00:03 <clarkbw>	if you wanted to save space you could model the back/forward buttons after a web browser
Jul 16 14:00:04 <calum>	dunno what to use instead though :)
Jul 16 14:00:04 <danw>	huh. yeah, especially since there's STOCK_FORWARD and STOCK_BACK
Jul 16 14:00:16 <clarkbw>	going off the idea that start/end are not used that much
Jul 16 14:00:26 <calum>	danw: aren't they what's used for Previous and Next though?
Jul 16 14:00:29 <danw>	oh, oh. yes
Jul 16 14:00:39 <martink>	that was the reason for undo/redo
Jul 16 14:00:41 <clarkbw>	you could have back/forward w/ history and a last item for end/start
Jul 16 14:01:03 <martink>	now gnome-icon-theme has next-page/previous page
Jul 16 14:01:09 <danw>	what's the use case for back/forward?
Jul 16 14:01:14 <calum>	oops, 7pm here... I have to bow out I'm afraid...
Jul 16 14:01:48 <clarkbw>	calum, doh.  sorry about that.  i'll try others to schedule earlier 
Jul 16 14:01:58 <martink>	danw: pdfs can contain links, so goto page-1 or page+1 is not alway enough
Jul 16 14:02:35 <--	calum has quit (Leaving)
Jul 16 14:04:31 <martink>	you can see the new page-next/page-previous icons here /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/stock/navigation (adjust prefix)
Jul 16 14:04:57 <danw>	how do you create bookmarks?
Jul 16 14:05:03 <martink>	if we'd use them for page navigation, stock_next and stock_previous can be used for back/forward in history
Jul 16 14:05:05 <danw>	and what is the disabled gear pop-up menu for?
Jul 16 14:06:20 <martink>	you can't create bookmarks with gpdf
Jul 16 14:07:07 <martink>	the pop-up menu contains expand/collapse when you're in bookmarks view
Jul 16 14:07:44 <danw>	should the sidebar force itself to be at least wide enough to fit all the widgets in the header?
Jul 16 14:09:37 <clarkbw>	ok, i think we have some good recommendations for that
Jul 16 14:10:11 <clarkbw>	we probably need to come up with mockups for button layout stuff in order to continue in that direction
Jul 16 14:11:00 <clarkbw>	martink, is the OO.o pdf problem a library problem or the way gpdf renders
Jul 16 14:11:51 <martink>	the way gpdf uses libgnomeprint in a way that was not intended originally
Jul 16 14:12:32 <martink>	some information is lost on the way pdf->some libs->freetype
Jul 16 14:12:45 <martink>	font encoding information
Jul 16 14:14:06 <martink>	do you want to hear more about that?
Jul 16 14:14:42 <clarkbw>	yea, it'd be great if we could get this fixed
Jul 16 14:14:55 <clarkbw>	not really a ui-review topic, but i can forward a lot of this to owen
Jul 16 14:15:01 <clarkbw>	he'd be good to have on this discussion
Jul 16 14:15:20 <danw>	is OO.o at all at fault or is it just a victim?
Jul 16 14:15:48 <martink>	it is just a victim. gnome-print pdfs (e.g. from gedit) have the same problem IIRC
Jul 16 14:17:45 <martink>	font files can contain more than one encoding
Jul 16 14:18:03 <martink>	libgnomeprint assumes that anyone using the gnome-print api wants the unicode encoding
Jul 16 14:19:51 <martink>	OOo embeds subsetted fonts in pdfs, i.e. the glyphs are in a different order in the font file
Jul 16 14:20:45 <martink>	the encoding information is in the pdf file. There's no way to get this information to freetype because everything goes through gnome-print
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 16 14:21:55 2004

Jul 16 14:21:55 -->	You are now talking on #ui-review
Jul 16 14:21:55 ---	Topic for #ui-review is gpdf ui-review
Jul 16 14:21:55 ---	Topic for #ui-review set by clarkbw at Fri Jul 16 13:09:35
Jul 16 14:21:56 ---	Monkey gives channel operator status to clarkbw
Jul 16 14:22:23 <martink>	back to ui stuff?
Jul 16 14:23:57 -->	owen (~otaylor@nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 14:23:59 <owen>	martink?
Jul 16 14:25:05 <martink>	owen: gpdf uses the gnome-print preview to display pdfs
Jul 16 14:25:19 <martink>	so, it's an xpdf->gnome-print api adapter
Jul 16 14:25:35 <owen>	OK.
Jul 16 14:25:43 <martink>	now it has hit some limits
Jul 16 14:26:22 <martink>	actually it has broken some limits (i.e. includes private headers... /me hides)
Jul 16 14:26:47 <martink>	it creates gnome-font-faces from files that are not in fontconfig
Jul 16 14:27:10 <owen>	Including in-memory faces?
Jul 16 14:27:29 <martink>	no, it puts them in temporary files
Jul 16 14:27:31 <owen>	libgnomeprint defnintely allows dumping raw glyph ids - I know that because gnome-print-pango does.
Jul 16 14:27:58 <martink>	I have problems with openoffice.org generated pdfs
Jul 16 14:28:19 <owen>	gnome_glyphlist_glyph() puts in a raw glyph ID - does no encoding conversion
Jul 16 14:28:33 <owen>	You also have problems with the pdfs that gnome-print produces :-)
Jul 16 14:28:56 <martink>	there must be something about encodings that I don't understand yet
Jul 16 14:29:01 <martink>	owen: I know
Jul 16 14:29:40 <owen>	The problem I've seen with the gnome-print pdfs is that you get random boxes in the output - is the ooo problem the same?
Jul 16 14:29:51 <martink>	yes, same problem
Jul 16 14:30:13 *	martink looks into an xpdf file... moment please
Jul 16 14:31:06 <owen>	OK, I'll be back in a second
Jul 16 14:32:45 <clarkbw>	i don't have much else as far as ui stuff is concerned
Jul 16 14:33:10 <martink>	clarkbw: your outline ideas were all discussed?
Jul 16 14:33:13 <clarkbw>	i think we need to get some ideas for button layout going, but we need to work on that and then present
Jul 16 14:34:12 <clarkbw>	martink, it'd be best if we summarized what the interaction of the outline system
Jul 16 14:34:21 <clarkbw>	then worked it out more
Jul 16 14:34:41 <clarkbw>	i'll start that right now so we can get it done today
Jul 16 14:35:03 <martink>	thanks
Jul 16 14:35:06 -->	maureen (~duffy@nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 14:37:31 <clarkbw>	martink, maybe you want to hash out the font problems with owen whenever he's back and you're ready
Jul 16 14:37:53 <martink>	clarkbw: good idea
Jul 16 14:38:16 <martink>	clarkbw: do you have any ui thoughts wrt the full screen view?
Jul 16 14:39:49 <clarkbw>	martink, i've been trying to figure out the use case for this
Jul 16 14:40:01 <clarkbw>	i've seen people use pdf's for presentations
Jul 16 14:41:40 <danw>	you mean exporting ppt to pdf for other people to download and view, or actually trying to use a pdf viewer as a presentation program?
Jul 16 14:42:11 <danw>	if the latter, you probably wouldn't want the "Exit Fullscreen Mode" button
Jul 16 14:42:20 <clarkbw>	both
Jul 16 14:43:01 <clarkbw>	you could do a similar trick that totem does for hiding that exit button
Jul 16 14:43:10 <martink>	in all the bugs requesting fullscreen features, people were talking about slides
Jul 16 14:43:23 <danw>	what's that? like an autohide panel?
Jul 16 14:43:51 <--	Frimost has quit (Client exiting)
Jul 16 14:44:11 <clarkbw>	ok, that's what i was assuming was the most common use case for fullscreen
Jul 16 14:44:48 <clarkbw>	if so, you'd want to clear the ouline view and auto-resize-to-fit
Jul 16 14:46:03 <danw>	er? i'd think you'd want to do 100%, not resize-to-fit (so you don't get artifacts)
Jul 16 14:46:14 <owen>	OK, back now
Jul 16 14:46:17 <martink>	in totem the panel reappears when you move the mouse IIRC. In presentations, some people move the mouse to point at things
Jul 16 14:47:49 <martink>	owen: what was confusing me is FT_Set_Charmap, it seems set something on the font face
Jul 16 14:48:19 <owen>	martink: FT_Set_Charmap should be pretty much irrelevant for what gpdf needs to do
Jul 16 14:50:57 <owen>	Eek, C++ code.
Jul 16 14:51:22 <owen>	(Nothing against C++ just was trying to figure out where some variable was coming from before realizing it was a member variable)
Jul 16 14:51:28 <martink>	owen: It seems I'm not well prepared for this problem and need to read some more. Can we talk about this a little later
Jul 16 14:51:44 <martink>	owen: it was c++ before I touched it
Jul 16 14:52:17 <owen>	martink: Sure, probably this isn't the best channel anyways. You can catch me on #gtk+ most of the time
Jul 16 14:53:05 <martink>	OK, cool
Jul 16 14:53:30 <--	owen (~otaylor@nat-pool-bos.redhat.com) has left #ui-review
Jul 16 14:55:09 <martink>	danw: pdf is mostly vector based and resize-to-fit maintains the aspect ratio. So why always 100%
Jul 16 14:55:36 <danw>	embedded graphics?
Jul 16 14:56:59 <danw>	presentation programs normally show the presentation at its natural size (and you're expected to make the presentation conform to the screen size, or vice versa)
Jul 16 14:59:32 <martink>	Hmm. I saw complaints about interpolated screenshots in presentations. But that was in an OOo channel and they were using acrobat.
Jul 16 15:01:04 <martink>	natural size: that is one PostScipt-Point == one pixel?
Jul 16 15:01:17 <martink>	PostScript
Jul 16 15:01:49 <danw>	i don't know. i guess it only matters if there are embedded images
Jul 16 15:04:45 <martink>	there are lots of presentation pdfs on the web. I can have a look and see how they were intended to be displayed
Jul 16 15:06:09 <clarkbw>	if the page view is a preference that remains we can just use that for the sizing
Jul 16 15:06:11 <reinouts>	darn it, got UTC time all wrong :(
Jul 16 15:06:28 <clarkbw>	i.e. for fit-to-width you would set it just before going to fullscreen
Jul 16 15:06:46 <clarkbw>	this way people can get the different sizes and if it looks wrong after going to fullscreen
Jul 16 15:06:55 <clarkbw>	they can go back, change and return to fc
Jul 16 15:07:38 <clarkbw>	reinouts, i'm working on an outline of the discussion right now.  should catch you up faster...
Jul 16 15:08:40 <--	azeem has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Jul 16 15:08:43 <reinouts>	clarkbw: tnx
Jul 16 15:11:04 <clarkbw>	http://gnome.org/~clarkbw/stuff/outline-gpdf-ui-review.txt
Jul 16 15:11:10 <clarkbw>	this is what i have so far...
Jul 16 15:14:13 <clarkbw>	hide 'Exit Fullscreen' button after a few seconds
Jul 16 15:14:13 <clarkbw>			reapear on mouse movement, not keyboard event or mouse click
Jul 16 15:14:27 <reinouts>	clarkbw: in 2.6 it still has both a Close and Quit menu item. Should probably be just Close, like Epiphany
Jul 16 15:14:28 <clarkbw>	this is what i'm thinking for the 'exit fullscreen' button
Jul 16 15:14:58 <clarkbw>	yes, and they both seem to do the same thing anyway
Jul 16 15:15:49 <clarkbw>	there's no reason to just close the document and keep gpdf open
Jul 16 15:15:56 <clarkbw>	you either open a new doc or quit
Jul 16 15:16:35 <martink>	the current Exit is intended to behave like Close All Windows
Jul 16 15:17:29 <clarkbw>	i don't think that's expected behavior
Jul 16 15:17:43 <clarkbw>	the close vs. quit is mostly and MDI application idea
Jul 16 15:17:57 <clarkbw>	where you'd have mutiple tabs and want to close just one tab
Jul 16 15:19:43 <martink>	okay, I'll remove Quit (sorry for the "Exit" confusion above, I use a localized gnome)
Jul 16 15:20:52 <clarkbw>	ok
Jul 16 15:21:10 <clarkbw>	i added the fullscreen exit button section to the outline since no one complained ;)
Jul 16 15:22:00 <clarkbw>	that's all i've got, and i should get going
Jul 16 15:22:08 <martink>	since it will autohide, can/should I add more buttons to that panel
Jul 16 15:22:30 <clarkbw>	like a next/previous?
Jul 16 15:22:35 <clarkbw>	might be a nice idea
Jul 16 15:23:10 <martink>	or zoom-to-fit
Jul 16 15:23:55 <clarkbw>	hm, i think i'd rather see zoom buttons on a right click popup
Jul 16 15:24:08 <clarkbw>	since they should only be setup once during the presentation
Jul 16 15:24:13 <martink>	ok
Jul 16 15:24:18 <clarkbw>	not really fiddled with a lot
Jul 16 15:26:08 <clarkbw>	does the outline navigation make sense?
Jul 16 15:26:24 <clarkbw>	the focused page should remain in the middle of the viewport
Jul 16 15:26:37 <clarkbw>	so that previous and next pages are within sight and not offscreen
Jul 16 15:29:07 <martink>	the name "Outline View" might be confusing. Some people call the "Bookmarks view" outline, now you use it for what's labelled Pages
Jul 16 15:30:38 <martink>	but the navigation makes sense
Jul 16 15:31:46 <reinouts>	martink: if you can click on the page borders to pgup/pgdn then I guess, why not?
Jul 16 15:33:26 <martink>	reinouts: "why not" to what?
Jul 16 15:35:16 <reinouts>	why not have the navigation you proposed
Jul 16 15:35:46 <clarkbw>	oh, i almost forgot
Jul 16 15:36:08 <clarkbw>	what are the chances of being able to not have the pages separate in the view
Jul 16 15:36:29 <clarkbw>	being able to see the bottom of one page and the top of the next
Jul 16 15:37:26 <martink>	heh, I haven't looked at that problem for some time
Jul 16 15:38:23 <martink>	that might require changes in libgnomeprintui.
Jul 16 15:38:34 <martink>	but then
Jul 16 15:39:27 <martink>	I seem to remember that libgnomeprintui can preview more than one page at once now. Maybe I can use that
Jul 16 15:41:52 <clarkbw>	hm
Jul 16 15:41:56 <clarkbw>	brb
Jul 16 15:42:01 ---	You are now known as meetingbw
Jul 16 15:54:47 <--	danw (~danw@130.57.22.69) has left #ui-review
Jul 16 16:03:46 ---	You are now known as clarkbw
Jul 16 16:06:58 <clarkbw>	ok, well i think i'm finally _really_ done this time
Jul 16 16:07:00 <clarkbw>	:)
Jul 16 16:07:20 <clarkbw>	i'll send out an email and open a ui-review bug with the outline
Jul 16 16:53:45 -->	azeem (~mbanck@dj.stud.chemie.tu-muenchen.de) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 17:01:46 -->	rcoscali (~rcoscali@marchevallees.net2.nerim.net) has joined #ui-review
Jul 16 17:02:35 <rcoscali>	Hy everybody
Jul 16 17:03:01 <rcoscali>	I'am one of the developer of gpdf and came on this channel for the ui-review
Jul 16 17:03:56 <rcoscali>	I'll be happy to chat about it for comments or bug reports
Jul 16 17:04:13 <rcoscali>	I'll try to stay in touch as long as I can ...
Jul 16 17:05:43 <martink>	hi Remi
Jul 16 17:06:13 <rcoscali>	Hy Martin. Happy to hear you
Jul 16 17:06:33 <rcoscali>	What are we suppose to do except receiving flames from bug reporters ;-)
Jul 16 17:07:10 <martink>	rcoscali: it's already over, I'm afraid
Jul 16 17:07:33 <rcoscali>	Humm fine then I'll go to bugzilla to see the results ...
Jul 16 17:07:49 <martink>	rcoscali: http://gnome.org/~clarkbw/stuff/outline-gpdf-ui-review.txt
Jul 16 17:08:31 <martink>	I'll send you a log
Jul 16 17:08:40 <rcoscali>	martink: thanks.
Jul 16 17:10:53 <rcoscali>	martink: Did you talk about an MDI interface for GPdf ?
Jul 16 17:12:19 <martink>	rcoscali: no; except that the Quit menu item doesn't make much sense in the current SDI interface
Jul 16 17:16:23 <rcoscali>	martink: Yes. At first I was no very entousiast about it, but now the more the time goes, the more I think it could be a good idea, even if HIG do not encourages this kind of UI. I think the reasons that justified its usage for epiphany/gedit etc are also perfectly valid for PDF viewer. What are your thoughts about it ?
Jul 16 17:18:49 <martink>	For me the number of PDF files that I have simultaneously open is much lower than the number of websites (except maybe when debugging)
Jul 16 17:21:01 <martink>	I don't like the idea of a tabbed gpdf (yet?). And with low numbers of open PDFs I haven't felt the need, so...
Jul 16 17:22:12 <rcoscali>	martink. Yes for me too. But I try to think like GPdf users. I'll put a proto on (at the end) my todo list. We shall talk again when available
Jul 16 17:22:48 <martink>	what's on the top of your todo list ;)?
Jul 16 17:23:13 <rcoscali>	cut&paste, select, modes, text search
Jul 16 17:23:48 <rcoscali>	martink: cut&paste is a little bit too entusiast ;-) let say copy/paste
Jul 16 17:24:28 <martink>	I haven't tested the branch, should I?
Jul 16 17:26:51 <rcoscali>	martink: I didn't yet commit a lot of working features ... most of the code is spread in some more or less ancient repositories or patches. It's not yet interresting to test ...
Jul 16 17:28:33 <rcoscali>	martink: One of the biggest problem I have at now is the selection rubberband. I don't like the way it is done in gpdf (and the way it was in previous gpdf-outlines branch). I would rather prefer to be able to revert text (and images ... another problem ...)
Jul 16 17:29:34 <rcoscali>	martink: I think I could need a little bit of GP hacking,...
Jul 16 17:30:34 <martink>	you mean selection should work like in a word processor?
Jul 16 17:30:41 <martink>	GP hacking? gnome-print?
Jul 16 17:30:51 <rcoscali>	martink: yes and yes
Jul 16 17:31:39 <rcoscali>	martink: acroread have a selection mode that run this way, 
Jul 16 17:33:05 <reinouts>	rcoscali: I think having both Close and Quit is a bad idea. Because it reinforces the application-centric view instead of the document-centric view. *if* you would want to keep an option to close all gpdf windows at once, call it 'close all pdf views' or something, like nautilus' 'close all windows'
Jul 16 17:37:48 <rcoscali>	reinouts: yes agreed. These changes should be in Gnome 2.8
Jul 16 17:40:39 <martink>	rcoscali: such a selection mode would be cool. But it sounds a lot harder than the xpdf way.
Jul 16 17:42:19 <rcoscali>	martink: yes indeed, it is. I think to a way to keep a "select" binary flag for each glyph. When true it should be drawn reverted. 
Jul 16 17:44:30 <rcoscali>	martink: The problem is it will be very expensive because it imply a redraw of the selection (or a lttle bigger area) at each mouse move. The intermediate solution would be to rubber band and then revert the selected part.
Jul 16 17:45:25 <rcoscali>	martink: still nice result but a lot less expensive (computations/redraw of page made only once at end of selection)
Jul 16 17:46:33 <rcoscali>	martink: for short i'am in a very intensive brain storming period ;-)
Jul 16 17:46:45 <martink>	:)
Jul 16 17:49:11 <reinouts>	I wonder: is gpdf more like a 'viewport' for a xpdf rendering canvas or does it use its own canvas but the xpdf algorithms in the background?
Jul 16 17:50:07 <martink>	reinouts: the second. The included xpdf code does the parsing and it interprets the PDF content stream
Jul 16 17:50:44 <martink>	gpdf renders on a gnome-canvas via gnome-print-preview
Jul 16 17:58:20 <reinouts>	nice to know
Jul 16 18:00:20 <reinouts>	I guess that doesn't make it any easier to re-implement the feature where you can enlarge a portion by selecting an area witht the middle mouse button...
Jul 16 18:03:38 <martink>	it's easier as in: implement it for gnome-canvas vs. implement it for a custom motif widget
Jul 16 18:05:57 <reinouts>	yeah but my point is, you can't just re-use the code
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jul 16 18:14:19 2004
