<clarkbw> screenshots: http://www.gnome.org/~paobac/screenshots/
<js> dowem, all distributors i know are using "Archive manager"
<clarkbw> seth, i guess
<paobac> seth: yes, i'm open
<dowem> js: I was going to suggest the same thing
<seth> Archive manager is ok
<seth> Though I wonder about the name "archive"... and "manager" anything is sub-optimal
<seth> Zip is the standard word for what file roller does
<seth> The problem of course being an implication that it would only deal with the file format of the same name
<dcberg> Well, hi everybody, just starting out reading, sorry. I just want to have clue about what's going on in a ui-review... maybe I'll be commenting on things later today
<seth> paobac: In what cases do you see a user launching file roller from the menus?
<clarkbw> cool dcberg, feel free to comment on anything or hang out and watch for a while
<seth> (as opposed to using it by double clicking in nautilus)
<clarkbw> dcberg, you could clean up bugzilla wrt to the gedit prefs we just did, if you'd like something to do
<dowem> poabac: What do you think about "Date and time" to "Archived on" in the properties dialog?
<paobac> seth: this is an interesting question, are you suggesting that the menu entry is useless ?
<seth> paobac: Not necessarily, but it could help us name it if we understood when people would use the menus
<seth> paobac: For example, presumably you need to use the menus to create an archive
--> billh (~bill@beryllium.eu.sun.com) has joined #ui-review
<js> anyone who is unaware of (or scared of) nautilus context menus needs the menu entry to create an archive
<seth> (though ideally perhaps that would be done by extending nautilus to have File->New Archive or something)
<dcberg> sorry clarkbw not even sure what you're saying... if it takes less than 10 min it's ok, but then I got a class and will be back after about two hours
<noah> dowem: ya i'm sort of an i18n guy
<seth> Noah is an i18n god
<dowem> naoh: did you see my ongoing discussion in the i18n channel?
<dowem> before i make any changes to that nautilus boog
<noah> dowem: no, but i have logs
<paobac> seth: this would require some nautilus extension which I think it's too late to add now
 paobac paolo 
<js> actually nautilus seems to have gotten a template system
<js> this must have happened very recently
<noah> dowem: oh, it's just a question about a single translatable string?
<dowem> well a couple strings
<dowem> but yes
<clarkbw> paobac, if it's for a ui-review then we can change ui's after the freeze
<paobac> clarkbw: no, it's for lack of time for the nautilus hackers :)
<noah> dowem: that would be a question for translators, don't think i can help you much there
<dowem> noah: ok thanks
<noah> so asking in i18n should be good
<noah> as you did
--> dobey (~dobey@130.57.22.69) has joined #ui-review
<js> wow, nautilus 2.5 is so different from 2.4 it borders on a compatibility problem
<dcberg> hmm, so I should have the cvs installed to have a clue, what people are talking about?
<clarkbw> dcberg, just the latest devel would be most appropriate (2.5.2)
<calum> dcberg: it's useful, but normally somebody posts screenshots of the things we're talking about too so it's not essential...
<clarkbw> dcberg, but that's also why we have screenshots :)
<js> not neccessarily though. should be screenshots
<dcberg> alright..
<dowem> so where should we start with the file roller discussion?
<clarkbw> in terms of a user scenario: lets start from the opening of an existing archive file
<js> are anybody posting screenshots of this? 
<js> i made a few, but then file-roller has a LOT of windows
* dowem has to run to class :( and i wont be back for 2 hours
<dowem> can we hold off the nautilus review untill then?
<clarkbw> sure
<dowem> thanks clarkbw ;) I owe you one :)
* dcberg off to class as well
* dowem thinks class is "teh suck"
* dcberg thinks it's mostly a waste of time
<seth> paobac: Sorry, not suggesting this for the current review ;-)
<seth> paobac: Just thinking in general
<seth> paobac: So as an aside, the biggest change which would be good for File Roller is mostly unrelated to HIG compliance, and that would be to make the unzipping task (from Nautilus) much simpler
<seth> paobac: Really the ideal UI for that is a progress bar
<seth> paobac: Double click, a progress bar pops up, and the file is unzipped into the current directory
<seth> (if there are multiple files in the top level, a new folder of the same name as the archive sans extension is created)
<paobac> seth: usually double-clicking a file will open it, this can be confiusing
<seth> In that case, I think you could name the menu entry "Archiver" or something like that, since it would be mostly for the creation of archives
<seth> paobac: No, won't be confusing
<seth> paobac: Double clicking on a file performs the default action on it
<seth> paobac: For a document, that means opening it
<seth> But an archive is not a document
<paobac> seth: what if nautilus is in single click mode?
<seth> paobac: Same thing
<seth> paobac: If it was a mistake, it is very easy to fix (drag the new folder into the trash). And basically the only thing you want to do with archives is unzip them anyway
<seth> Design for the 95% case, not the edge cases
<seth> 95% (or more) of the time all people do with an archive is unzip it
<js> seth, perhaps "File compressor", to avoid confusion over what an archive is
<dobey> js: that implies compression of a single file
<seth> js: *nod*
<seth> Yeah, that's the problem I've bene running into picking a name
<clarkbw> compression is really just a 'meta' state, the file-roller really creates packages
<js> dobey, yes. 
<dobey> "File Compressor" sounds like something that would give you more hard disk space
<auspex> Not all archives are compressed, and vice versa.
<seth> One option is that we could pick a standard name for archives of any sort in GNOME
<js> perhaps "File archiver" then
<seth> Archive is probably *not* a good name and is more related to the historical development of tar
<js> better than just "archiver" at the very least.
<dobey> and ar, and zip, and everything else that is called an archiver? :)
<auspex> js: I think that's Archivo Archiver in Spanish. :-)
<seth> dobey: Zip is usually called... zip
<js> auspex, heh ;)
<seth> Zip is actually probably the most recognized name for this operation
<dobey> and tar is usually called tar
<dobey> "File Tarballer"
<auspex> lol
--> dowem_ (~dowem@itl-lab-23.sclab.clarkson.edu) has joined #ui-review
<js> dobey, or perhaps not :)
<clarkbw> Zip is the most widely known
--> siva_food (~nsiva@202.144.86.147) has joined #ui-review
<paobac> then Zipper
--> rrm3 (~xchat2@dpvc-141-156-108-159.res.east.verizon.net) has joined #ui-review
<dobey> zip is the most widely known because in windows, you use winzip
<seth> paobac: That wouldn't be bad
<dobey> they are called zips because in windows people call files by their extension
<seth> paobac: Its not perfect, but at least most people could recognize it
<seth> dobey: Windows users will probably call extracting a tarball "unzipping"
<js> "zip creator"? "zipper" sounds like a daft brand name :)
<calum> proably doesn't translate too well either...
<seth> calum: good point
<dobey> "Indian Burial Ground File Containment"
<seth> noah: How many languages have standard mechanisms for verbing nouns?
<clarkbw> ok, so we need a good name
<clarkbw> i'd say the name has to relate to the action of creating zip type packages
<dowem_> well zip is a bit odd... what about "compression tool"
<calum> packager? compresser?
<seth> Zip Creator is at least reasonable
<seth> calum: Doesn't that have the same problem as zipper ?
<dobey> compressor is bad, it implies compression
<paobac> "If you would click on WinZip click here" :)
<auspex> zip is a common name for a variety of compression and archiving programs. PKZip being the most common in the PC world. Compress, zip, gzip, tar, bzip, being Unix variants. StuffIt being the Mac thing, afaict.
<seth> paobac: :-)
<dobey> packager is bad, it implies it will create installable packages
<clarkbw> he he
<calum> seth: dunno, they're just regular english words...
<clarkbw> dobey, what kind of installable packages?
<dobey> clarkbw: rpms or such
<dobey> clarkbw: "packages"
<seth> Yeah, I have reservations about packages too, even though the name is good
<seth> If it weren't already used for RPMs and the like
<js> seriously i think anything but "zip" will confuse _someone_
<clarkbw> dobey, i tend to doubt the people who make rpms will be confused by this
<js> atleast with zip you either know what it means or you don't
<clarkbw> but i don't think it's the best term
<dobey> clarkbw: people who make rpms aren't who i am worried about being confused
<seth> clarkbw: THe big concern is not what the people who create RPMs will think
<dobey> clarkbw: it's the people who think they could make rpms
<seth> clarkbw: Its that people will become familiar with the existence of packages because they install them
<seth> clarkbw: And will avoid this tool because they don't want to make an RPM
* seth shrugs
<auspex> "Zip Handler/Viewer/Frobnicator"  ;-)
<dobey> File Transmogrifier
<js> i know understand why the menu item still says "File Roller"
<js> s/know/now
<calum> in JDS we call it "Archive Manager", FWIW...
<dobey> besides, having generic names is kind of sucky, also
<js> also fedora, ximian
<seth> Fedora still says File Roller
<dowem_> i dont think archive manager is a bad name, but on the other hand "zip" carries a lot of weight and understanding for a lot of people
<tiil> xd-unstable says "Archive files", actually
<calum> sure... and WinZip doesn't just handle zip files either, so I guess we can't rule it out on those grounds...
<js> seth, i think it is called two different thins in "Accessories" and "System Tools" on fedora. i might be wrong, i'm in a jhbuild desktop atm.
<seth> calum: My sense is that most people will still call it zipping and unzipping no matter what the file type
<seth> js: Its not in system tools
<seth> js: I'm running Fedora Core 1 right now ;-)
<js> ok. i suck ;)
<calum> seth: totally agree, for windows folks... mac folks will probably always call it unstuffing though :)
<js> "Zip Unstuffer"! Hah!
<seth> calum: well stuff them ;-)
<seth> calum: Actually, I've never heard mac folks use a particular name
<dobey> calum: or not, mac users probably just rely on it automatically unpacking
<seth> dobey: true, true
<calum> dobey: yeah, you're right
<dobey> i know i do :)
<seth> Plus Mac has 3 or 4 possible formats
<calum> so why don't we? :)
<clarkbw> so what do mac people call creating it, "stuffing"?
<dobey> no
<seth> clarkbw: I think most Mac users don't think about creating them
<seth> clarkbw: But if they do, they probably use stuffit and don't have a name
<calum> they just drag the files onto the icon and it happens...
<clarkbw> that should be our goal
<dobey> possibly "Archiving"
--> clahey_ (~clahey@130.57.22.69) has joined #ui-review
<seth> clarkbw: yeah. Right click integration with folders should be pretty easy actually
<seth> We even already have it
<js> yes.
<seth> paobac: Hm, given that we already have "Add to archive..." 
<seth> paobac: Do we need a menu item?
<clarkbw> seth, yes, but our design doesn't consider 'why people are making archives'
<seth> clarkbw: The mental assumption I've been using is "for internet distribution"
<seth> Though there's probably a small contigent that actually uses them for archiving too
--> larsw (~lars@port-212-202-14-205.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #ui-review
<calum> yeah, me too... maybe we just need a "send to" option that archives the files automatically and attaches them to an email :)
<clahey_> seth: Does sending an email to someone count as distribution.
<clahey_> ?
<seth> clahey_: I think so
<clarkbw> i like calum's idea :)
<seth> I think its a good feature
<seth> But I don't tihnk e-mail is the only way they will be distributed
<clarkbw> cut to the chase
<dobey> he already missed the bounty I guess
<clahey_> That sounds more like transmission than distribution, just for semantics sake.  I also like calum's idea.
<calum> right, you would need Send To Email recipient, Send to FTP site etc...
<clahey_> Send to SCP.
<dobey> Send to Carrier Pigeon
<clahey_> dobey: I'm thinking they're going to leave that one out.
<dobey> *shrug*
<seth> calum: I'm not sure about send to FTP, actually
<clahey_> Would you want a Send To submenu?
<noah> seth: heh, dunno
<clahey_> seth: Cause that should be done through gnome-vfs?
<seth> calum: Is there a reason the operation isn't "make an archive", "copy to ftp site"
<seth> yeah
<seth> s/should/perhaps should/
<clahey_> Right.
<dowem_> damn fire alarms!
<seth> The question is if posting something to FTP is such a common operation that we want to hardcode it into our menus
<seth> I think you could make a better case for a "Move to Desktop" operation
<seth> In every right click menu
<clahey_> One thing to note is that most of the people who we know that send tarballs to ftp sites do it using tools that automatically generate the tarballs.
<js> you people spend too much time on usability-list. are we fixing file roller for 2.6 or writing a long term file-archive integration GEP? :)
<seth> clahey_: Really?
<clahey_> seth: No?  automake?
<seth> js: both
<seth> clahey_: oh yeah. Automake creates them automatically... right. ;-)
<clahey_> seth: I smell sarcasm.
<seth> clahey_: *grin*
<clahey_> :)
<clahey_> Regardless, people using automake aren't going to switch to file-roller.
<seth> js: Before you do a short term design its good to understand how it fits into long term goals
<seth> clahey_: yeah
<clahey_> People sending collections of files to friends would switch.
<clahey_> I really like Send to Email...
<seth> Me too
--> UliGNE (~uli@213.83.0.30) has joined #ui-review
<clahey_> And as long as it supports gnome-vfs, ftp and scp seem like they should be done by saving the file to a gnome-vfs mounted file system.
<seth> But I'm not convinced that it replaces the need for archive functionality
<clahey_> seth: Note I missed the beginning.  Sorry if I'm not making sense.
<seth> clahey_: you're making sense
<seth> clahey_: And I agree
<dobey> clahey_: i think you are making more sense than most of the rest of the conversation :)
<clahey_> It certainly shouldn't replace save to file.
<clarkbw> I think the Send to Email... is a little off target
<clarkbw> it requires more integration from the email client
<dobey> the email client can do it
<dobey> but anyway
<clarkbw> if we archive up 10 pictures I'm sending 
<clarkbw> but only show one zip file
<clarkbw> it will confuse people
<clarkbw> i'm talking about the attachment window
<seth> So lets focus the discussion, I think we've explored the send to e-mail option pretty well
<seth> For now lets take it as given that we will have functionality for creating an archive
<seth> paobac: How would you feel about having the archiving functionality only be in nautilus and having no menu item?
<paobac> seth: well, it feels a bit strange to me, but if you think it's better I've no problems with it
<js> then we're going context menu only
<-- boris has quit (Leaving)
<js> what's the cost of the menu item? the accessories category isn't really huge.
<seth> Technically its a system tool, actually
<seth> Accessories is defined as "things that relate to the real world"
<calum> yeah, I just looked for it there first :)
<js> well.
<seth> back in 5 minutes
--- seth is now known as sethAFK
<clarkbw> i would say a change of names, to 'Archiver' or something
<js> packing stuff up and shipping them together rather than separately is pretty normal in the real world
<clarkbw> and a move to System Tools
<dobey> hrmm
<clarkbw> I don't see the need to remove the menu item
<dobey> how does "character map" relate to the "real world" in a way similar to "calculator"?
<clarkbw> Achive Manager doesn't make sense to me
<clarkbw> because this doesn't actually 'manage' my archives
--> Mitario (~michiel@sikkes.xs4all.nl) has joined #ui-review
<auspex> Looking at the screenshots:  All of the prefs can be eliminated. Compression is an archive property - and sometime the property of just one file in the archive. Visible columns can be controlled from the View menu.
<paobac> auspex: the compression level is used when adding files to the archive, it's not an archive property.
--- sethAFK is now known as seth
<seth> clarkbw: What about "Zip Creator" ?
<seth> clarkbw: Its not as slick and cool as "Archiver", but I think its going to be more recognizable
<clarkbw> paobac, isn't the level a file independent setting?
<clarkbw> seth, i'd stand behind "Zip Creator" :-)
<dowem_> damnit another fire drill
<paobac> clarkbw: yes
<clarkbw> recognizability and action
<dowem_> IT seems zip creator is a good menu entry
<dowem_> since poeple clicking in the menu would be likeley to want to create an archive.
<seth> In System Tools
<clarkbw> paobac, perhaps a level menu below Edit would be better for changing this
<dowem_> using it via double clicking a tar file or something is thhe natural way to extract the file
<auspex> paobac: pkZip (and so JAR) is both an archive and compression format/algorithm. An MPEG added to a zip is usually left uncompressed because MPEG is a compressed format. Plain text, on the other hand, is usually compressed, but may not be in some cases for speed; e.g., OpenOffice files.
<js> i still think packing stuff up is arguably a real world task.
--> pbor (~paolo@host160-9.pool80180.interbusiness.it) has joined #ui-review
<paobac> clarkbw: it's not applied on the fly, the compression level is used the next time you add or delete a file from the archive.
--- siva_food is now known as siva
 paobac paolo 
<clarkbw> paobac, is it possible to apply on the fly?
<paobac> clarkbw: yes, saving it each time
 paobac paolo 
<paobac>  clarkbw: it can be a very expensive operation
<paobac> clarkbw: time expensive
<clarkbw> paobac, an entire resave would need to be done?
<-- naggeldak has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
<paobac> clarkbw: yes
<clarkbw> paobac, would you say this is something changed often, just once, or hardly ever?
