
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 28 15:57:51 2002

Nov 28 15:57:51 -->	You are now talking on #ui-review
Nov 28 16:04:18 -->	Breda (Breda@159.134.57.127) has joined #ui-review
Nov 28 16:11:02 <--	Gnils has quit (Client Exiting)
Nov 28 16:11:44 -->	Gman (~glynn@faeroes.eu.sun.com) has joined #ui-review
Nov 28 16:11:56 <Gman>	doh!
Nov 28 16:12:25 *	Gman thinks he's missed all the ui-review stuff this week :/
Nov 28 16:13:32 <cal_LAP>	I assume auspex and Eimi didn't do any more after I left last night...
Nov 28 16:13:44 <cal_LAP>	in which case we've still got the gedit prefs dialog to do today
Nov 28 16:14:19 <Gman>	ok
Nov 28 16:14:21 <cal_LAP>	and all its sub-dialogs of course :)
Nov 28 16:15:07 <Gman>	lovely
Nov 28 16:15:09 <Gman>	screenies?
Nov 28 16:16:00 <huey_>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/preferences-dialog.png
Nov 28 16:16:57 <cal_LAP>	not sure about the ellipses in the headers, should just be colons...?
Nov 28 16:17:25 <Gman>	ooh, HIGness!
Nov 28 16:18:00 <Gman>	needs mnemonic for the spinner
Nov 28 16:18:15 *	huey_ is called away (grrrmpf)
Nov 28 16:18:33 <cal_LAP>	why are both the "when creating a new file" options greyed out?
Nov 28 16:18:35 ---	huey_ is now known as huey_away
Nov 28 16:18:49 <cal_LAP>	how would I enable them again?
Nov 28 16:19:02 <--	huey_away has quit (Download Gaim [http://gaim.sourceforge.net/])
Nov 28 16:19:51 <Breda>	Presumably because you have chosen "Save" from the Editor category?
Nov 28 16:20:47 <cal_LAP>	hmm, don't think so, the only way to create a new file is to save one :)
Nov 28 16:20:59 <Breda>	But I don't know how you can create something without saving it!
Nov 28 16:21:08 <Breda>	Crossed wires!
Nov 28 16:21:40 <cal_LAP>	they're both disabled on my installed copy, too... maybe just not implemented yet.... tell us, paolo :)
Nov 28 16:22:45 <Breda>	They become enabled if you choose "Use original" in the "When saving" section.
Nov 28 16:22:55 <cal_LAP>	oh...
Nov 28 16:23:01 <paolo>	if you set "orignal file encoding" you have to set the the encoding to use when you create a new file
Nov 28 16:23:18 <cal_LAP>	right... should probably be indented somehow to show the relationship, then...
Nov 28 16:23:18 <paolo>	is it clear?
Nov 28 16:23:37 <Breda>	Has a comment already been made about removing the frames?
Nov 28 16:24:00 <paolo>	Breda: which frames?
Nov 28 16:24:18 *	cal_LAP thinks the high contrast save icon looks worryingly like a condom
Nov 28 16:24:28 <cal_LAP>	and a used one at that :)
Nov 28 16:24:38 <paolo>	cal_LAP: hehe, it save you!
Nov 28 16:24:47 <cal_LAP>	very drole :)
Nov 28 16:24:57 <Breda>	paolo: Sorry -- looking at an older version on screen instead of the screenshot!
Nov 28 16:25:45 <Gman>	all this encoding stuff is pretty un-userfriendly though
Nov 28 16:25:56 <paolo>	Gman: s/minutes/_minutes ?
Nov 28 16:26:08 <Gman>	can't you convert to a given encoding after you create a file?
Nov 28 16:26:10 <Gman>	paolo: lovely
Nov 28 16:26:37 *	Gman just isn't sure if there is a need for the 'creating a new file...' option
Nov 28 16:27:37 <cal_LAP>	might indeed be nice if there was just an extra dropdown in the Save As dialog to let you choose the encoding...
Nov 28 16:27:44 <paolo>	Gman: we can chose to always use UTF8 encoding when a new file is created, but I'm not sure it is a good idea (for example LaTex does not support UTF8)
Nov 28 16:28:23 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep, it will be a great solution, but we need the new file selector first
Nov 28 16:28:32 <cal_LAP>	nod
Nov 28 16:29:09 <Gman>	paolo: but you could fall back to non-utf8 if neccessary, no?
Nov 28 16:29:39 <paolo>	yep, but gedit does not know how you will use the file you are creating
Nov 28 16:29:52 <cal_LAP>	why not?  :o)
Nov 28 16:30:25 <paolo>	its AI engine is still a bit broken :-)
Nov 28 16:30:37 <Gman>	heh
Nov 28 16:30:52 <paolo>	it does not read the future from your hands
Nov 28 16:31:28 <Breda>	Pardon my ignorance, but is it a big deal to create a file using a particular encoding, and then change to a different encoding when saving?
Nov 28 16:31:37 <paolo>	BTW, I hope to be able to simplify this dialog when we will have the new file selector
Nov 28 16:32:17 <Gman>	cool
Nov 28 16:32:35 <paolo>	Breda: it is not, but we need to define the right guy. Note that you could not be able to translate an UTF8 to another encoding
Nov 28 16:32:39 <Gman>	are we still happy with 'When saving ... ' ?
Nov 28 16:33:09 <paolo>	s/guy/GUI
Nov 28 16:33:22 <Breda>	paolo: ah... -- thanks for explaining!
Nov 28 16:33:23 <Gman>	also, i think you are going to have to do more screenshots for the rest of the preference tabs ;)
Nov 28 16:34:14 <paolo>	yep, font&colors: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/font-color-dialog.png
Nov 28 16:34:56 <Breda>	Dare I mention the dreaded Saxon genitive? "locale's"
Nov 28 16:34:57 <Gman>	ahh, okay ;)
Nov 28 16:36:03 <cal_LAP>	Breda: suggestion for better wording?
Nov 28 16:36:44 <Breda>	"Use encoding from current locale if possible"?
Nov 28 16:37:39 *	Gman is still confused by having a 'when creating...' in a Save dialog :/
Nov 28 16:38:11 <paolo>	Here Creating means "Saving to a new non existant file"
Nov 28 16:38:57 <cal_LAP>	maybe the headings should be something like "When saving an existing file" and "When saving a new file" ...?
Nov 28 16:39:32 <Gman>	sounds better
Nov 28 16:39:40 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 16:39:41 <Breda>	Yes, sounds much better!
Nov 28 16:39:45 <Gman>	not sure if you need 'When'
Nov 28 16:39:52 <Gman>	Saving an existing file
Nov 28 16:40:06 *	Gman gives way to calum though
Nov 28 16:40:14 <paolo>	What about l10n and i18n problems?
Nov 28 16:40:28 <Gman>	s/if/when ?
Nov 28 16:40:38 <Gman>	...encoding when possible?
Nov 28 16:40:51 <Breda>	How about "Existing File" and "New File"?
Nov 28 16:41:16 <Breda>	You're already in the Save dialog so no need to say "Save" again?
Nov 28 16:41:36 <Gman>	i thought of that, but then thought it sounded too concise :/
Nov 28 16:43:06 <Gman>	hrm, maybe we should move on, and let the docs guys comment on the strings later
Nov 28 16:43:13 *	Gman needs to go soon
Nov 28 16:43:14 <cal_LAP>	I trhink the plural would be slightly better ('Existing Files' and 'New Files'), but maybe that's just me :)
Nov 28 16:43:37 <Gman>	next!
Nov 28 16:43:50 <cal_LAP>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/font-color-dialog.png
Nov 28 16:44:16 <Breda>	Calum: I agree that the plural sounds better
Nov 28 16:44:50 <Gman>	s/Font used by the editor:/Editor font:/g
Nov 28 16:45:02 <Gman>	it's a bit shorter, and more inline with the font preference dialog/terminal profiles etc..
Nov 28 16:45:22 <cal_LAP>	the HIG should specify standard wordings for this sort of thing, but it doesn't :/
Nov 28 16:45:34 <cal_LAP>	we have 'use default theme font here', 'use same font as other applications' in terminal etc...
Nov 28 16:45:46 <cal_LAP>	s/here'/' here/ :)
Nov 28 16:46:11 <Gman>	right
Nov 28 16:46:17 *	Gman just noticed that too
Nov 28 16:46:27 <Gman>	terminal also has a font and size chooser
Nov 28 16:46:42 <Gman>	we should note to merge those to be consistant with gedit and font-preferences
Nov 28 16:47:30 <Gman>	so we go with 'use same * as other applications' ?
Nov 28 16:48:01 <paolo>	"Use system font"
Nov 28 16:48:20 <cal_LAP>	hmm, not sure about "system", a bit geeky :)
Nov 28 16:48:42 <cal_LAP>	"Use font specified in Font Preferences" or something, but that's not clear either :/
Nov 28 16:48:53 <cal_LAP>	I think we should just leave it as it is and sort it out in the HIG later :)
Nov 28 16:49:02 <paolo>	Gman: where are Font Pref screenshots?
Nov 28 16:49:49 <Gman>	lemme check
Nov 28 16:50:21 <paolo>	so s/Font used by the editor:/Editor font:/g is the only suggestion for this dialog
Nov 28 16:50:26 <Gman>	cal_LAP: when is later? :)
Nov 28 16:50:40 <Gman>	paolo: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~gfoster/ui-review/TWO/preference-dialogs/Screenshot-Gnome-font-properties.png
Nov 28 16:51:17 <cal_LAP>	heh... it's on my bug list, but we must have nearly 100 bugs and suggestions in my HIG mail folder to get through so no guarantees :)
Nov 28 16:51:19 <paolo>	Gman: thanks
Nov 28 16:51:31 <Gman>	ok, let's move on
Nov 28 16:51:37 <Gman>	the dialog is pretty straightforward
Nov 28 16:51:41 *	Gman has about 10 mins left
Nov 28 16:51:43 <Breda>	Is it the case that the user chooses either the default theme font, or one of the fonts from the list?
Nov 28 16:51:52 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/tabs-preferences.png
Nov 28 16:51:59 <cal_LAP>	Breda: yes, that's right
Nov 28 16:52:33 <Breda>	Then why not just add "Default theme font" or "Default font" or whatever you decide to call it as the first option in the drop-down list?
Nov 28 16:52:40 <Gman>	needs mnemonic _characters
Nov 28 16:53:01 <paolo>	Gman: it has _tabs
Nov 28 16:53:07 <Gman>	oh.
Nov 28 16:53:11 <Gman>	didn't notice
Nov 28 16:53:15 <Gman>	it's a bit far away :)
Nov 28 16:53:24 <cal_LAP>	Breda: hmm, that could work, but unfortunately the font list control is a special custom control that probably wouldn't easily support that just now :/
Nov 28 16:53:39 <paolo>	yep. but I cannot use _c it is already used by _Close
Nov 28 16:53:43 <Gman>	s/Set tabs width/Set tab width/ ?
Nov 28 16:53:47 <Gman>	paolo: true
Nov 28 16:53:52 <cal_LAP>	Breda: certainly worth thinking about though...
Nov 28 16:53:53 *	Gman defers 
Nov 28 16:54:21 <Gman>	not sure you need 'equivalent' do you:?
Nov 28 16:54:35 <Breda>	Calum: oops, sorry -- features!
Nov 28 16:55:09 <cal_LAP>	Breda: heh... well, not really, better ways of doing the same thing just about qualify for discussion :)
Nov 28 16:55:17 <paolo>	Gman: hmm... it is not 8 chars, but it is equivalent to 8 spaces
Nov 28 16:55:30 <paolo>	it is different when you have non monospaced fonts
Nov 28 16:56:49 <paolo>	"tabs width" or "tab width" ?
Nov 28 16:57:02 <Breda>	tab width
Nov 28 16:57:05 <paolo>	ok
Nov 28 16:57:21 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/wrap-mode-pref.png
Nov 28 16:57:33 <Breda>	how about "Set tab width to <> space character(s)"?
Nov 28 16:57:44 <Breda>	I'm gonna have to speed up to catch up with you guys!
Nov 28 16:57:47 <cal_LAP>	do we need 'equivalent' in there? i.e. just have "Set  tab width to <n> characters"?
Nov 28 16:58:04 <cal_LAP>	oh, I see you've covered that one :)
Nov 28 16:58:12 <paolo>	ok
Nov 28 16:58:19 <Gman>	paolo: i don't think people would notice, would they?
Nov 28 16:58:20 <paolo>	you convinced me
Nov 28 16:58:24 <Gman>	can't we just bluff them/ :)
Nov 28 16:58:41 <Gman>	moving on .. :)
Nov 28 16:58:44 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/wrap-mode-pref.png
Nov 28 16:58:47 <cal_LAP>	s/enable text wrapping/wrap words ?
Nov 28 16:59:04 <cal_LAP>	ah no, I see you can wrap at characters too...
Nov 28 16:59:09 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 16:59:34 <Gman>	the two options are rather confusing :/
Nov 28 16:59:51 <cal_LAP>	s/enable text wrapping/wrap long lines, then, maybe?
Nov 28 17:00:09 <cal_LAP>	can you set the number of columns anywhere or is it always just the width of the window that's used?
Nov 28 17:00:46 <paolo>	for discussions about this dialog: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82710
Nov 28 17:01:13 *	Gman almost wonders if some of these dialogs can be merged?
Nov 28 17:01:18 <paolo>	cal_LAP: it is always the width of the window 
Nov 28 17:01:26 <cal_LAP>	ok...
Nov 28 17:01:37 <Gman>	ie. wrap mode, line numbers and autoindent
Nov 28 17:02:30 <paolo>	Gman: how would you call the category?
Nov 28 17:02:35 <Gman>	General 
Nov 28 17:02:35 <Gman>	:)
Nov 28 17:02:41 <Gman>	Stuff
Nov 28 17:02:43 <Gman>	Thing
Nov 28 17:02:44 <Gman>	Foo
Nov 28 17:02:45 <Gman>	um.
Nov 28 17:02:46 <paolo>	hehe
Nov 28 17:03:07 <Gman>	just potentially it's a lot of changing dialogs to configure a bunch of options
Nov 28 17:04:12 <paolo>	a like simple dialogs since the user has not to think about them too much
Nov 28 17:05:15 <cal_LAP>	true, although if you have lots of categories it's just complex in a different way :)
Nov 28 17:05:17 <Gman>	ok
Nov 28 17:05:39 <Gman>	i think i need to go, but i'll have a look at the screenshots and the logs and catch up a little this evening
Nov 28 17:05:44 <Gman>	[hopefully]
Nov 28 17:05:46 <Gman>	bye
Nov 28 17:05:48 <--	Gman has quit (foo.)
Nov 28 17:06:04 <paolo>	moving on...
Nov 28 17:06:56 <Breda>	I think we need to rephrase "Do not split words over two lines"
Nov 28 17:06:57 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/auto-indentation.png
Nov 28 17:07:09 <paolo>	Breda: suggestion?
Nov 28 17:07:19 *	Breda thinking about it!
Nov 28 17:08:38 <Breda>	Am I right in thinking that this is the same as turning hyphenation on/off?
Nov 28 17:08:39 <paolo>	Breda: add your comments to  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82710 , Thanks!
Nov 28 17:08:48 <Breda>	Paolo: ok!
Nov 28 17:08:51 <paolo>	no
Nov 28 17:09:11 <paolo>	cal_LAP: you here?
Nov 28 17:09:16 <cal_LAP>	yep
Nov 28 17:09:32 <paolo>	Comments on "Auto Indent"?
Nov 28 17:09:58 <Breda>	So if you don't select that checkbox, a word may split over two lines without a hyphen to indicate that they are both part of the same word?
Nov 28 17:10:11 <Breda>	Autoindent should be one word.
Nov 28 17:10:25 <cal_LAP>	hmm, would be nice if the checkbox label was more descriptive... I assume this feature uses the same indentation as the line above when you press return...?
Nov 28 17:10:35 <paolo>	Breda: yep
Nov 28 17:10:37 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep
Nov 28 17:10:56 <cal_LAP>	maybe the checkbox label should be "use the same indentation as the line above when you press return" then :)
Nov 28 17:11:14 <Breda>	Then autoindent is a paragraph-specific preference, as opposed to a document preference?
Nov 28 17:11:15 <cal_LAP>	or something a bit more helpful anyway, but I don't know what...
Nov 28 17:11:22 <paolo>	cal_LAP: bit long
Nov 28 17:11:30 <cal_LAP>	just a bit :)
Nov 28 17:12:26 <paolo>	I think that the ones who use this feature know what it means
Nov 28 17:13:15 <paolo>	it is only useful if you use gedit to write XML/HTML files or to program
Nov 28 17:13:47 <cal_LAP>	I guess so
Nov 28 17:13:59 <Breda>	So you override it by backspacing from the indent?
Nov 28 17:14:31 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 17:14:35 <cal_LAP>	like Gman said, though, it does seem a bit weird having a whole tab with only one control on it  :/
Nov 28 17:15:20 <paolo>	yep, but I don't see a way to unify them with a sane name
Nov 28 17:15:39 <cal_LAP>	still, there's nothing in the HIG that prevents it so I guess we should move on :)
Nov 28 17:15:52 <Breda>	You could combine Tabs and Indents?
Nov 28 17:16:42 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/line-numbers.png
Nov 28 17:16:54 <cal_LAP>	Breda: that wouldn't be too unreasonable...
Nov 28 17:17:19 <paolo>	yep, it you suggest a good name (I spent a day thinking to it ;-(
Nov 28 17:17:37 <cal_LAP>	heh
Nov 28 17:17:55 <paolo>	Any comments on line numbers?
Nov 28 17:18:21 <paolo>	Are the icons of the tabs ok for you?
Nov 28 17:19:05 <cal_LAP>	hmm, the auto-indent and line numbers icons don't theme for me, are they stock icons?
Nov 28 17:19:26 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 17:19:47 <cal_LAP>	hrmm, must be a bug in the high contrast theme then... all the others theme fine
Nov 28 17:19:53 <cal_LAP>	do you know the IDs of those too off-hand...?
Nov 28 17:19:58 <cal_LAP>	s/too/two
Nov 28 17:20:10 <paolo>	lemme see
Nov 28 17:20:59 <paolo>	cal_LAP: they are gnome stock icons (not gtk+ ones)
Nov 28 17:21:10 <cal_LAP>	ah, ok... I don't think we can theme those :/
Nov 28 17:21:34 <paolo>	why not? They use the gtk+ stock engine
Nov 28 17:22:03 <cal_LAP>	hmm, true... anyway, doesn't matter, I'll file a bug in the appropriate place when I've investigated, let's carry on :)
Nov 28 17:22:23 <paolo>	ok, comments on line numbers=
Nov 28 17:22:24 <paolo>	?
Nov 28 17:22:42 <cal_LAP>	nothing from me, other than 'would be nice to combine it with something else' again :)
Nov 28 17:22:53 <Breda>	Same here
Nov 28 17:23:08 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/encoding-management.png
Nov 28 17:23:46 <paolo>	it is a bit cryptic dialog IMO, but I was not able to design a better one
Nov 28 17:23:59 <cal_LAP>	I wonder if this category should be called "Open" rather than "Load", to match the menu item (and the category icon)...?
Nov 28 17:24:16 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 17:24:50 <paolo>	or "Input encodings"?
Nov 28 17:25:04 <cal_LAP>	the "Add" button in the Encodings dialog should be disabled until you select something in the list
Nov 28 17:25:21 <paolo>	right
Nov 28 17:25:51 <cal_LAP>	would probably be nice if the up and down buttons had "Move Up" and "Move Down" on them too, so they could have mnemonics
Nov 28 17:26:07 <cal_LAP>	hmm, dunno about "Input encodings"... any thoughts Breda?
Nov 28 17:26:21 <Breda>	I must admit I'm quite ignorant about this whole encoding thing!
Nov 28 17:26:28 <cal_LAP>	me too :)
Nov 28 17:26:31 <Breda>	What exactly are you trying to do in this dialog?
Nov 28 17:27:09 <paolo>	to set the encodings gedit is able to manage when it is reading a non utf8 file
Nov 28 17:27:37 <paolo>	for example files containing non utf8 Chinese text 
Nov 28 17:28:26 <paolo>	the problem is that it is not possible to understand the enconding a file is using in an automatic way
Nov 28 17:28:57 <paolo>	so gedit tryes to decode the file using the encoding in the list 
Nov 28 17:28:58 <Breda>	You mean, I might want to open a file in Cyrillic, and another file in Arabic, in the same session of gedit?
Nov 28 17:29:06 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 17:29:29 <Breda>	Is this something that you set up once and gedit remembers every time you reboot?
Nov 28 17:29:30 <paolo>	Or simply open two file Japanese that use different encoding
Nov 28 17:29:37 <paolo>	Breda: yep
Nov 28 17:30:32 <cal_LAP>	the 'Encodings' label at the top of the list could maybe make this a little clearer somehow, not sure how though... :/
Nov 28 17:30:41 <cal_LAP>	maybe "Supported encodings" or something...
Nov 28 17:30:52 <paolo>	It is a very useful feature if you are using a non-Latin1 and/or non UTF-8 locale
Nov 28 17:31:01 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep
Nov 28 17:31:16 <Breda>	So the only thing that you are doing when you choose "Load" is setting the encodings that gedit can interpret?
Nov 28 17:31:25 <paolo>	yep
Nov 28 17:31:47 <Breda>	Then I would change "Load" to "Encodings"?
Nov 28 17:32:28 <paolo>	Note that here you can set only the encoding gedit can use when reading a file (not when saving)
Nov 28 17:33:41 <cal_LAP>	hmm, right, just calling it "Encodings" might not make that clear, then
Nov 28 17:34:01 <Breda>	Hmmm -- perhaps we should move the encoding info from the Save dialog to this dialog, if this is something that is likely to be set up in advance and then not changed when actually saving?
Nov 28 17:34:54 <paolo>	dunno
Nov 28 17:35:12 <paolo>	probably in the future I will implemet output encodings
Nov 28 17:35:35 <paolo>	for the moment let we call the page "Open" as calum suggested
Nov 28 17:36:29 <paolo>	sorry guys, but I have to go now.
Nov 28 17:36:34 <paolo>	Thanks for your help
Nov 28 17:36:35 <paolo>	bye
Nov 28 17:36:46 <Breda>	bye
Nov 28 17:36:51 <cal_LAP>	ok, bye
Nov 28 17:37:15 <cal_LAP>	guess we might as well call it a day at that then...
Nov 28 17:37:24 <Breda>	fair enough!
Nov 28 17:37:40 <cal_LAP>	I don't think we have screenshots of the other prefs pages anyway...
Nov 28 17:38:08 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep, you can find all the screenshots at http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/
Nov 28 17:38:09 <Breda>	There's Undo?
Nov 28 17:38:25 <cal_LAP>	I didn't see the Print preferences there...?
Nov 28 17:38:37 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/print-font.png
Nov 28 17:38:48 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/print-page.png
Nov 28 17:38:58 <cal_LAP>	oh,. my mistake... my browser was caching the lsiting :)
Nov 28 17:39:05 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/undo-pref.png
Nov 28 17:39:19 <cal_LAP>	I see them all now, thanks...
Nov 28 17:39:32 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/plugin-manager.png
Nov 28 17:39:44 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/time-plugin-conf.png
Nov 28 17:39:53 <cal_LAP>	Breda: do you want to tackle the others then?  only three or four to go...
Nov 28 17:40:03 <paolo>	it should be all
Nov 28 17:40:04 <paolo>	bye
Nov 28 17:40:20 <cal_LAP>	thanks, bye paolo
Nov 28 17:40:23 <--	paolo has quit ([x]chat)
Nov 28 17:40:38 <Breda>	I don't mind staying on, if you're happy to explain things to me!
Nov 28 17:41:11 <Breda>	Paolo might prefer to be present?
Nov 28 17:41:16 <cal_LAP>	heh, ok... have to go in about half an hour myself anyway so it shouldn't take long :)
Nov 28 17:41:36 <Breda>	So where to next?
Nov 28 17:41:52 <cal_LAP>	we can just send him the chat logs and he can comment in the bugs that get filed if he wants to...
Nov 28 17:42:03 <cal_LAP>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/undo-pref.png
Nov 28 17:42:18 <cal_LAP>	another densely-packed dialog :)
Nov 28 17:42:54 <Breda>	Heh :) Seems to be a rogue line at the bottom?
Nov 28 17:43:10 <cal_LAP>	think so, yes... doesn't show up in my version anyway
Nov 28 17:43:22 <cal_LAP>	'actions' should have a mnemonic so you can focus the spin box directly
Nov 28 17:43:54 <cal_LAP>	any better ideas than "Set limit on undo actions to"?  sounds a bit long and shouldn't really be making sentences out of controls....
Nov 28 17:44:06 <cal_LAP>	"Undo action limit:" or something...?
Nov 28 17:44:26 <Breda>	Limit to <> action(s)?
Nov 28 17:45:01 <cal_LAP>	hmm, suffers from the same "making a sentence" problem though, which can be bad for l10n...
Nov 28 17:46:23 <Breda>	Would it be too brief just to have "<n> actions", or "Up to <n> actions"?
Nov 28 17:47:12 <Breda>	s/actions/_action(s)/   :)
Nov 28 17:47:43 <cal_LAP>	hmm, yes, a little bit too brief probably...
Nov 28 17:47:58 <cal_LAP>	actually, I wonder why this is a checkbox item at all, seems a bit odd...
Nov 28 17:48:02 <cal_LAP>	what happens if you uncheck it?
Nov 28 17:48:13 <cal_LAP>	does it set the history to 1 or infinity...?
Nov 28 17:48:24 *	cal_LAP tries
Nov 28 17:48:33 <Breda>	None, I'd imagine -- you just can't undo at all?
Nov 28 17:48:45 <cal_LAP>	nope, it seems to make it unlimited :)
Nov 28 17:48:54 <Breda>	Nice :)
Nov 28 17:49:04 <cal_LAP>	maybe this should really be two radio buttons then...
Nov 28 17:49:33 <cal_LAP>	(o) Limit to <n> actions
Nov 28 17:49:37 <cal_LAP>	(o) Unlimited undo
Nov 28 17:49:41 <cal_LAP>	or words to that effect...
Nov 28 17:50:10 <Breda>	Sounds good
Nov 28 17:50:25 <Breda>	And populates the dialog too ;-}
Nov 28 17:50:50 <cal_LAP>	true!
Nov 28 17:51:18 <cal_LAP>	ok, next, then... http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/print-page.png
Nov 28 17:51:51 <Breda>	Indentation of Wrap...
Nov 28 17:52:02 <Breda>	(Should be left aligned)
Nov 28 17:52:09 <cal_LAP>	oh yes, never noticed that...
Nov 28 17:52:34 <Breda>	And I guess you'd like a mnemonic for the spinner?!
Nov 28 17:52:41 <cal_LAP>	yes please :)
Nov 28 17:52:50 <cal_LAP>	doesn't really tell you what's in the "Page header" either... more descriptive label or a little preview might be nice
Nov 28 17:52:59 <Breda>	Yep
Nov 28 17:53:00 *	cal_LAP prints a page to see what you get
Nov 28 17:54:09 <cal_LAP>	filename and page numbers, it seems
Nov 28 17:54:26 <Breda>	Is this "Wrap" option similar to those on the Wrap Mode dialog?
Nov 28 17:55:01 <cal_LAP>	I assume so, except it looks like you can't wrap whole words, only at characters
Nov 28 17:55:06 <Breda>	Is there a footer too, or just header?
Nov 28 17:55:19 <cal_LAP>	just a header
Nov 28 17:55:35 <cal_LAP>	d'oh, I should just have done a File->Print Preview instead of printing an actual page :)
Nov 28 17:55:58 <Breda>	Heh :)
Nov 28 17:56:07 <cal_LAP>	"at character boundaries" doesn't really need to be in brackets, does it?
Nov 28 17:56:23 <Breda>	Nope
Nov 28 17:56:45 <cal_LAP>	and perhaps it should be called "Enable text wrapping" (or whatever we decided it should be) in the Wrap Mode dialog, like you say
Nov 28 17:57:40 <cal_LAP>	interesting you can print line numbers every 'n' lines here, but in the document window you have to show them on every line or not at all...
Nov 28 17:57:49 <Breda>	Perhaps the "Do not split words" checkbox should be split into two radio buttons: "Wrap at character level" and "Wrap at word level" 
Nov 28 17:58:05 <Breda>	or "boundary" instead of "level", or whatever?
Nov 28 17:58:27 <Breda>	Previous comment was referring back to the Wrap Mode dialog!
Nov 28 17:58:42 <cal_LAP>	hmm, I've a funny feeling it used to be more like that and they changed it...
Nov 28 17:58:58 *	cal_LAP checks http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82710
Nov 28 17:59:38 <Breda>	Re. line numbers: yes ... and if the option was added to the Line Numbers dialog, it would populate that window more :)
Nov 28 18:00:04 <cal_LAP>	heh
Nov 28 18:00:15 <cal_LAP>	maybe it's just genuinely not useful in the document window though, I don't know...
Nov 28 18:01:05 <cal_LAP>	okay, how about http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/print-font.png
Nov 28 18:01:20 <cal_LAP>	rather a lot of "Font used to print...." going on here...
Nov 28 18:01:39 <Breda>	Yep.
Nov 28 18:01:51 <cal_LAP>	maybe just needs Body:, Headers: and Line numbers:?
Nov 28 18:01:59 <Breda>	Sounds good
Nov 28 18:02:22 <cal_LAP>	s/Restore default fonts/Restore Default Fonts too, I think, according to our capitalization rules for buttons
Nov 28 18:02:52 <cal_LAP>	is there a better word than 'Body'?  it's a little bit techie....
Nov 28 18:03:06 <Breda>	I'll have to defer to you on that -- you're the HIG expert :)
Nov 28 18:04:20 <Breda>	In this case, does "Headers" mean the header information that you get if you choose that checkbox in the Print Page dialog?
Nov 28 18:04:27 <cal_LAP>	I believe so, yes
Nov 28 18:04:49 <cal_LAP>	you're thinking the font selection should go beside the checkbox, aren't you :)
Nov 28 18:04:52 <Breda>	Then they should be called "Page header:" to avoid confusion?
Nov 28 18:05:11 <cal_LAP>	(that's what I was thinking anyway...)
Nov 28 18:05:32 <cal_LAP>	and ditto for the line number font... but anyway...
Nov 28 18:05:41 <cal_LAP>	yes, Page headers sounds good
Nov 28 18:06:07 <Breda>	Hmmm, then we could combine the two dialogs into one?
Nov 28 18:06:42 <cal_LAP>	yep
Nov 28 18:07:24 <Breda>	Sounds good :)
Nov 28 18:07:35 <cal_LAP>	We should maybe use the same term for "body font" and "font used by the editor" on the Font & Colors dialog, if possible...
Nov 28 18:08:12 <Breda>	Yep
Nov 28 18:08:36 <cal_LAP>	so maybe 'body font used by the editor' there... not sure though
Nov 28 18:09:01 <cal_LAP>	still not sure most people who even use this will know what a 'body font' is :/
Nov 28 18:09:30 <Breda>	I haven't used gedit yet (oops!) -- is it only one font per file, or can you have several fonts in the same file?
Nov 28 18:09:58 <cal_LAP>	just the one per gedit window, I think... certainly not more than one per file
Nov 28 18:10:02 *	cal_LAP checks
Nov 28 18:10:28 <cal_LAP>	yes, the setting affects all the documents you have open
Nov 28 18:11:07 <Breda>	So then we could just say "Text font"?
Nov 28 18:11:33 <cal_LAP>	perhaps, or compromise and say 'body text font' :)
Nov 28 18:11:53 <cal_LAP>	'text font' always sounds a bit redundant to me, though, you wouldn't generally use a font for anything other than text
Nov 28 18:12:01 <cal_LAP>	(although I know there are special fonts for symbols etc.)
Nov 28 18:13:15 <Breda>	Hmmm, true. I guess the only reason we need something in this case is to differentiate from the page header font.
Nov 28 18:13:30 <cal_LAP>	right
Nov 28 18:13:47 <Breda>	"Normal font"?
Nov 28 18:13:53 <Breda>	What is normal ;-P
Nov 28 18:14:57 <Breda>	Just thinking about the Wrap option -- why would you ever uncheck that? You'd lose the text that ran off the page?
Nov 28 18:15:18 <cal_LAP>	yeah, you would... something that netscape is very fond of doing too
Nov 28 18:15:45 <cal_LAP>	it's reasonably handy if you're printing tables and you're only interested in the first few columns, but that's about it
Nov 28 18:15:49 <Breda>	So in this case it really should only be a choice between wrapping at the character or word level -- not whether or not you want to wrap at all?
Nov 28 18:15:58 <Breda>	Oh, true.
Nov 28 18:17:09 <cal_LAP>	oops, I have to go actually, guess we'll have to leave it at that... I think there was only one more to go anyway, we can do that tomorrow
Nov 28 18:17:28 <Breda>	Two: plugin and undo :)
Nov 28 18:17:43 <cal_LAP>	oh, didn't we finish Undo...?
Nov 28 18:17:43 <Breda>	I think Pat will be representing the docteam tomorrow.
Nov 28 18:18:06 <Breda>	Sorry, forgot -- definitely time to go!
Nov 28 18:18:14 <cal_LAP>	heh ok...
Nov 28 18:18:31 <cal_LAP>	catch you later I guess
Nov 28 18:18:35 ---	You have left channel #ui-review
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Nov 28 18:18:35 2002

