<shaunm> I like easy fixes. :)
<clarkbw> and the previous/next still seem to be active after i go back
<clarkbw> do you have that?
<clarkbw> i went into a doc, used back to get to the home page
<clarkbw> previous and next were still sensitive
<shaunm> previous/next should only be active if you're looking at a page that has previous and next pages.
<shaunm> really?  that's a bug, then.
<clarkbw> i get a dialog 'The document '#drivemountapplet' does not exist'
<shaunm> yup.  sure does.
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<clarkbw> ok, anyway
 shakti shaunm 
<shaunm> I don't have any problems loading that document.
<clarkbw> i can load the doc
<clarkbw> but after i back out to the top
<clarkbw> the next/prev buttons are still active
<clarkbw> just a weird bug i think
<shaunm> yeah
<clarkbw> shaunm, check out this http://clarkson.edu/~clarkbw/gnome/dq/gnome_dq_ui.py.gif
<clarkbw> that's a bad prototype of something called dynamic queries
<clarkbw> i'm thinking you could still have the browse system
<clarkbw> but provide a search bar that does something similar
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<clarkbw> as you type in the search terms the search shortens the list of matching items
<clarkbw> similar to the rythmbox search
<seth> but at a decent speed
<shaunm> It may be possible.
<shaunm> There's infastructural work that needs to happen for search.
<seth> shaunm: Those are not words of commitment!!!
<seth> What's all this wishy-washy crap? ;-)
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<shaunm> seth: I over-committed myself for 2.6 and only came through on half my promises.
<shaunm> Until I find gobs more free time, no more promises.
<shaunm> I can do search in the 2.8 timeframe, but doing the dynamic listing might be harder.
<shaunm> as opposed to typing a search term and hitting a button, and then getting results.
<pycage> you guys set gdesklets on the ui-review page. do you have plans to review it?
<seth> shaunm: I'm just abusing you :-)
<clarkbw> come on, tell you what I'll give you seth's first born?
<shaunm> I don't know.  I have to profile it and see what's doable.
<clarkbw> pycage, i'd like to but it doesn't look like it's going to be a part of GNOME 2.6 so we need to concentrate on the other modules first
<pycage> clarkbw: yes. it won't come into 2.6
<shaunm> At any rate, a dynamic search requires thought on the interface.  The search sidebar that was in 2.4 was a nightmare.
<shaunm> It'll be easier if I can get the freedesktop help system off the ground.
<pycage> clarkbw: please let me know about any reviews about it. ui discussions are very much appreciated :)
<shaunm> I have to go do that shower thing now.
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<clarkbw> pycage, sure thing
<pycage> thanks
<clarkbw> pycage, thanks for the interest :)
<clarkbw> ugh, what's next?
<pycage> btw, what bugs me most about GNOME ui currently is the ever-growing preferences menu
<seth> The preferences menu grows and contracts
<seth> Its like new england roads... a constant maintenance hassle
<clarkbw> pycage, any suggestions for improvement?
<pycage> i saw a nice mockup about categorizing the thing recently
* pycage tries to remember where he saw it...
<clarkbw> from eugina?
<pycage> maybe...
* pycage still searching
<pycage> yes, from eugenia
<pycage> http://www.osnews.com/img/5568/prefs.png
<seth> Talk about visual overload...
<pycage> that's true :)
<clarkbw> that is really busy
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<pycage> but maybe the prefs menu of the panel can be split up into several categories
* dcberg finally back
<clarkbw> how would you go about it?
<clarkbw> there has been a lot of discussion in several bugs on this
<pycage> e.g desktop preferences, hardware settings, system settings, ...
<clarkbw> we don't want menus to be any deeper
<pycage> toplevel menus, not submenus of the prefs menu
<pycage> i don't think you need more categories than desktop, hardware, system
<pycage> a problem with this approach, however, is that gnome menu entries are sorted alphabetically and the entries may not be together in the menu
<dcberg> I don't see the problem yet
<dcberg> if you got some sub catogories, the items are sorted within those
<pycage> yes, but if they're toplevel menus you may up having other menu entries between the settings menus
<clarkbw> sorry, i need to get some food; haven't eaten yet today
<clarkbw> dowem, your turn...
<pycage> imho that doesn't look to good
<dowem> clarkbw: i am not entirely sure what you want me to cary on with :)
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<dcberg> oh, allright, you're right on that one
<pycage> but having 2 more toplevel menu shouldn't hurt
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<dcberg> but I thought of going to /settings/hardware or softwar or what else/metacity
<pycage> maybe the prefs menus could be separated from the rest by separators, like this happens with the recently used menu
<dcberg> you'd just have to get rid of the accessibility and advanced menus and integrade the items in there
<dcberg> I don't like the idea of having more than one preferences item in the application menu
<dcberg> you don't use them that often that the ui of the prefs themselves is more importend than the look of the app-menu
<pycage> right now the prefs menu is sorted in between the other menu entries and it depends on the locale where you will find it
<pycage> setting it off from the other menu entries might be nice
<pycage> actually, it's not a menu where you find applications in it
<dcberg> but? how'd you call that?
<pycage> i would suggest having these 3 menus separated from the others by separators
<dcberg> but however, I like the idea of havin the prefs at the bottom... that's why I call them Xprefs
<pycage> hehe. nice workaround :)
<pycage> on debian, it was the second entry (Desktop-Prferenzen), on Fedora it's the 4th now (Prferenzen)
<dcberg> or you could have them right in the main menu as in windows, which I think makes quite a lot of sence, since they aren't applications really
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<dcberg> btw, does anybody know how to get rid of that debian menu in the main menu?
<pycage> yes. they should be set off from the rest
<dowem> Speaking of the menus, doesn't "browse the filesystem" sound like an action more than an application?
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<pycage> indeed
<pycage> i prefer it in the actions menu
<dowem> If it is a verb type phras ebeing used in the desktop entry i think it should be in the actions menu
<dcberg> yup, but how do you browse the file sys in the menu?
<dcberg> and what's the action menu... I'm using gnome 2.4 did I miss something?
<pycage> "File System Browser" would better fit into applications than "Browse the File System"
<dcberg> ;) and still the same difference makes sense to me
<pycage> the actions menu is shown next to the applications menu if you use the menu applet
<dowem> dcberg: I will show you
<dcberg> thanks
<pycage> both menus are merged on fedora core 1...
<dowem> http://clarkson.edu/~dowem/Screenshots/menu.png
<dcberg> alright, got it... I messed up my menu too much I guess
<dowem> pycage: I agree that "File Browser" is better than "Browse file system" if its going to stay in the applications menu
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<pycage> i still prefer "Browse file system" in actions menu :)
<pycage> it's somehow related to search, just that you search by yourself
<dcberg> hmm, I assume that it opens nautilus or any other installed file-browser, so I think file browser is just fine... but on the other hand it is almost part of the system itself, so it's more like a action, just as search, as you said, pycage
<dowem> pycage I agree, i think it is an action
<pycage> yeah, user might be able to set a preferred application for browsing (nautilus/ROX/konqueror/...)
<dowem> I think "Browse Filesystem" would make perfect sense in the actions menu right above "search for files"
<dowem> you know... right in the group along with recent documents
<pycage> yeah, a that's a nice place there
<dcberg> well, no complaints from me on that idea ;)
<dowem> it would sort of group manual file related brosing/searching together
<dowem> while leacing the applications menu for normal applications
<pycage> speaking about "browse file system"... how about a "browse the web" action?
<dcberg> but then I guess, that network servers should move as well
<dowem> network servers is in need of love
<dcberg> sure it is
<dowem> the label isnt a verb
<dowem> but i think it should be
<dowem> and it should also be an action
<dcberg> about browse the web... that is too much like windows, that is too much of thinks in the action menu... then the next would be create a image etc
<dcberg> create a document...
<pycage> you're right... we would end up like the Mandrake menu :D
<dowem> I think moving the file management actions into the actions menu is ok....  but i wouldnt add an action for everything ;)
<dcberg> so yes, we should stick to file mangement which means network and filesys browsing... but I can't think of how to name the network servers as action... brows the network?
<dcberg> *browse
<dcberg> sounds just wrong to me... well, I'm German, but still, I'm convinced there must be a better more suitable option for the name
<pycage> brb... busy
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<dowem> dcberg: yeah we need to come up with a nice verb based name i think before we should consider a move
<dowem> View Network Places ?
<dowem> its sort of long though
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<shaunm> OK
<shaunm> Any more beatings for me?
<shaunm> How about dialog HIGification?
<dowem> shaunm: your doing yelp right?
<shaunm> dowem: yup
<shaunm> 'yelp ghelp:foo' and 'yelp ghelp:gedit#foo' illustrate a couple of error dialogs.
<shaunm> assuming, of course, none of you have an app called foo installed with documentation. ;-)
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<dowem> hahah
<dowem> "The document null does not exist"
<dowem> is definitely in need of love
<shaunm> oh, it's a little different on HEAD.
<dowem> The document '(null)' does not exist
<shaunm> hold on, uploading screenshots now.
<dowem> ok
<dowem> cool
<shaunm> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/yelp/dialogs/
<dowem> is there any advice to give the user?
<shaunm> not really.
<dowem> hmmmm
<dowem> i wish there was a way to tell them to check if the documentation is installed or something but thats too complicated for average joe user
<dowem> the dialogs are much better than the ones in m version of yelp 
<shaunm> There are three other error dialogs, but they're harder to produce.
<dowem> thats cool
<dowem> as long as there is less stuff about 'null'
<dowem> you've made some progress
<shaunm> So aren't dialogs supposed to have an emboldened title, and then a 2-3 sentence explanation?
<dowem> I need to check the hig for that stuff. unfortunately i havent memorized those sections
<shaunm> the other three look like those two, with these messages: "The table of contents could not be read."  "DocBook SGML documents are no longer supported."  "The selected file could not be read."
<shaunm> the third of those won't ever appear in 2.6, unless a user knows exactly the right thing to type in the command line.
<shaunm> it can happen for the man and info converters, which are sufficiently not ready that I'm not advertising their existence in 2.6.
* cbEATIN scrolls up
<pbor> shaunm: from a quick look at those dialogs: remove separators and usually the alert msg should be in bold
<dowem> shaunm: Im reading http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/windows.html#alert-windows
<shaunm> ok, yeah.  I remember that the HIG doesn't like separators.
<shaunm> but I'm just calling gtk_message_dialog_new.  so I guess that isn't HIG-friendly?
<pbor> yeah, not hig friendly...
<dowem> things like that would be awesome for gnome to get around to doing
<dowem> auto-hig compliant constructors
<shaunm> I think there was some discussion on gtk-devel-list recently about a hig compliant message dialog.
<dowem> the error alrt section should fill you in though on the details
<pbor> shaunm: if you come up with a primary msg (in bold) + secondary msg and already depend on eel, there is a eel_alert_dialog_new
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<pbor> which is hig compliant
<pbor> maybe works ok also if the secondary msg is NULL, I have not tried
<shaunm> we need to redo the screenshots in the HIG.
<shaunm> right after I get somebody to change the stupid theme recommendations in the GDSG.
<shaunm> I don't depend on eel right now, but there's no reason I can't.
<shaunm> Now, does anybody have a recommendation for that horrible wart on my interface that we call the Home button?
<pbor> what about renaming to Index or  Summary
<pbor> no idea about the icon, though
--- You are now known as clarkbw
<shaunm> Index isn't a good word.  It's already a very loaded word with books.
<shaunm> and Summary seems kind of wrong.
<pbor> "Contents"?
<shaunm> also loaded.
<dowem> home definitely should be changed i think
<dowem> it looks like it should take you to the nautilus home 
<dowem> which obviously doesn't happen 
<dowem> "Index"
<dowem> maybe?
<shaunm> So here's the thing: If Yelp is opened to a specific document from the Help button of some app (which I think is the most common use), that button really needs to convey that it takes you away from this document.
<shaunm> I hate Home, but I've never been able to think of another word for it.
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 shakti shaunm 
<clarkbw> shaunm, that's cause there's no place like home :-)
<pbor> do we really need it? can't a menu entry with a more verbose description suffice?
<dowem> "view all documents"
<dowem> or something
<shaunm> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91610
<pbor> something like "General Help Index" or similar
<shaunm> pbor: I have no problems with taking it off the toolbar.
<shaunm> Frankly, I have no problems with not having a toolbar.
* pbor nods
<shaunm> Though I'm sure somebody would flame me for that.
<clarkbw> no, i think the current scheme is a browse system.  you need that toolbar for it
<shaunm> I already have a bunch of regressions that will be in 2.6.
<clarkbw> unless you change how the help system works
<clarkbw> you'll just make it harder to move around in the pages
<dowem> It would seem entirely silly to have a toolbar with a back and forward entry only
<dowem> to be honest it would look naked without the home icon there
<shaunm> clarkbw: yeah, that's mostly why I haven't removed the toolbar.  If Back/Forward were replaced, it's something I'd look at.
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* dcberg hates game for failing on him
* dcberg loves game for having such a nice interface
<shaunm> dowem: I could add a throbber.
<dcberg> *both gaim
<dowem> shaunm :) that might work to make it not feel so naked
<shaunm> A throbber just pushes me more towards a browser interface, which I don't want.  But at the same time, feedback is a good thing.
<pbor> I admit I haven't followed the previous discussion about Next/Previous, but what about replcing the Home button with a Go To drop down containing "previos/next page" and "Gnome Help Index" (of course replece Index with whatever fitts better)
<clarkbw> i think you've made yelp a lot faster, i doubt a throbber would increase the user experience much
<dowem> I agree ...
<dowem> it seemed pretty speedy here
<clarkbw> shaunm, i want you to turn your attentions towards the search system... :-D
<shaunm> clarkbw: shouldn't we be hitting 2.6-relevant stuff first?
<dowem> shaunm what about ditching home and making it a book icon saying "Entire library" or something similar
<shaunm> Oh, and you guys can criticize the document categorization as well, if you like.
<dcberg> I press the home button too often, to think of that as a good idea, replacing the home button
<dowem> the functionality would be the same
<dowem> just a different icon
<dowem> because it makes me think it will open the nautilus home
<shaunm> I somewhat suspect that most normal users just load up a document from a Help button, read some, and close.
<dcberg> I'd rather have a bookmark section for the sidepanel. If that hasn't been considered already
<shaunm> I want bookmarks too.  But it's too late.
<dcberg> :( guessed so.
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<dcberg> did gaim crash again or am I still in the room?
<dowem> still here ;)
<dcberg> thanx
<dowem> welcome 
<shaunm> you guys IRC from gaim?
<dcberg> I do
<shaunm> wow
<dowem> nope xchat :(
* shaunm patiently waits for gnomechat.
<dcberg> it works fine, and why would I have xchat and gaim installed?
<dcberg> but well, I just crashed, and crashes all most of the time, when you try to enter a chat room, not on your buddy list
<shaunm> well, I don't use gaim for anything else, so I never even tried it for IRC.
<dcberg> hmm, I like it for msn and icq communitation
<shaunm> I don't IM.
* dcberg thinks we are off topic
<shaunm> yeah
<dcberg> so question is, is there anything left I should have an opinion on?
<shaunm> not sure.
<shaunm> but I suppose ui-review bugs should be filed about things we've discussed.
<dcberg> Hmm, I suppose, but kinda hard for me, since I've been away to university most of the time...
<shaunm> clarkbw: pokey
<dcberg> and didn't quite understand everything that was talked about
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 shakti shaunm 
<clarkbw> shaunm, sorry, in the bathroom :)
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* clarkbw starts the bugzilla engine churning
* dcberg wonders what exactly clarkbw is doing
