--> You are now talking on #ui-review
--- Topic for #ui-review is Next UI-Review rocking it on Mon. Jan 18th, 04:00 GMT - 12:00 GMT
--- Topic for #ui-review set by clarkbw at Thu Jan 15 14:21:34
<clarkbw> jody, there will be more work on the bg capplet later
<clarkbw> jody, but we can move on to gnumeric now
<clarkbw> what did you want to start with?
<jody> clarkbw: there is alot of stuff in gnumeric
<jody> probably a review of some of the key dialogs is a decent place to start
<jody> eg the chart guru (assistant), cell format, or text import
<jody> those would be most useful, but are going to be hard
<jody> possibly a review of the smaller dialogs would be easier
<clarkbw> lets start with an easy one and then do a hard one :)
--> svu (~svu@195.218.110.105) has joined #ui-review
<svu> hi clarkbw. What about the review?
<clarkbw> svu, yeah i made notes earlier
* clarkbw gets them
<clarkbw> jody, what's our starter dialog?
* svu is scared to death
<jody> clarkbw: lets do keyboard capplet first
<jody> that is more important
<svu> jody: thanks
<clarkbw> the capplet isn't resizeable
<clarkbw> i think this one should be because of the tree views in the advanced tab
<svu> Well, it was initially nonresizable. But sure I can fix this. But will other tabs suffer?
<clarkbw> i think the initial size is good
<svu> OK. That is not a problem for me. I can do it. jody, objections?
<svu> well, probably he is afk now. Will we proceed?
<clarkbw> yes
<clarkbw> there wasn't too much else...
<svu> ??? why. Is that all that good?
<clarkbw> oh wait
<clarkbw> the keyboard model chooser had a problem...
<clarkbw> my note says the resize of the capplet when you open the drop down
<clarkbw> let me try it out again
<clarkbw> oh wow, now i remember
<clarkbw> we need a better way to do this :-\
* clarkbw gets screenshots
<svu> Agree! The button suxx
<svu> The button "Reset to defaults" should be put somewhere else. Where?
* svu is listening to the expert's opinion
<clarkbw> http://clarkson.edu/~clarkbw/screenies/Screenshot-Gnome-keyboard-properties.png
<clarkbw> here's the initial
<clarkbw> http://clarkson.edu/~clarkbw/screenies/Screenshot-Gnome-keyboard-properties-1.png
<clarkbw> ^ that's what happens after i open the drop down list
<clarkbw> that needs to change
<svu> I know. I know. What would be the good UI here? Actually, even removing the button will not solve the problem completely - just make it less dramatic
<clarkbw> yes
<svu> So, two questions: where to get the bloody button, how to handle models.
<svu> Lets's start with #1 please.
<svu> The idea is to put the button at the bottom, below the trees.
--> ska-fan (~ska-fan@dsl-082-082-100-001.arcor-ip.net) has joined #ui-review
<svu> But in this case it will effectively eat the entire row
<svu> Just one little button... 
<svu> It does not look great really. 
<ska-fan> Are there people out there who like to make glade files hig compliant? :)
<jody> svu: resizable is good
<clarkbw> the current layout is good
<svu> Also, the semantical problem that this button on tab3 also affects tab4. I would call it question #1.a
<clarkbw> we just need to figure on how to change the choosing of the keyboard model
<clarkbw> svu, can you explain exactly how it effects tab4
<svu> well, probably if we sort this out, there will be no need to move the button. But it still lives us with #1.a:)
<clarkbw> just to be clear
<svu> Sure
<svu> The button takes the system xkb settings (written in XF86Config) and restores them. This affects the ENTIRE xkb configuration, which is actually what we have on tabs 3 and 4
<svu> Does this make sense?
<clarkbw> yes, so it triggers a reload on the treeviews
<svu> exactly
<svu> You got me right. And the models combo as well.
<clarkbw> and i'd say this is a configuration that's done maybe once in the life of the system
<svu> Well, kind of right. So what?
<clarkbw> because if it's only ever done once, then it's ok if we make it slightly harder to do in the name of looking good :)
<svu> What do you mean? |-|
<clarkbw> i.e. the drop down for the keyboard model suggests that you can switch quickly and easily between models
<clarkbw> but if people aren't going to switch quickly or often, then why are we making this choice?
<svu> Yes. Kinda...
<svu> sry, which choice? Choice of the keyboard?
<svu> do not get you really
<clarkbw> the choice of widget for displaying which model
<clarkbw> instead we could just use a label with a button going to another window for choosing models
<svu> ok. what's your idea? text field?0:-)
<clarkbw> that is a for instance
<svu> Another window?
<svu> Just for one combo? It would look strange I'd say...
<clarkbw> well since we can't control the length of strings in the combo
<clarkbw> we need something else that doesn't bork our layout
<clarkbw> seth, any ideas for this?
<svu> well, I could cut strings on some fixed length - but it suxx
<seth> whoops
<seth> reading back
<seth> hmmm
<seth> I don't have any particularly bright ideas here
<svu> :/ Will we broadcast the question somewhere?
<svu> Is there anything in gtk which would prevent combo from enlarging?
* svu thinks about single-sel list with both vert and hor scrolls and finds is damn ugly
<clarkbw> jody, this is a far off one, but i'll send it anyway :)
<clarkbw> jody, http://clarkson.edu/~clarkbw/screenies/gnumeric/insert.png <-- more feedback for inserting
<clarkbw> svu, i'm not sure about gtk keeping the widget size normal
<clarkbw> anyway, this is quite the edge case; but something that should be filed as a bug
<svu> Not critical I hope? Against g-c-c or agains gtk?:)
<clarkbw> all ui-review bugs get filed as minor severity
<clarkbw> hm, this would be against the capplet i think
<clarkbw> but we could ask gtk people about how to fix it
<clarkbw> jody, http://clarkson.edu/~clarkbw/screenies/gnumeric/insert-column.png <-- insert column feedback
<svu> deal.
<svu> clarkbw: about the insertion dialog. Why dialog, not popup menu like in Excel? Dialog looks like overkill...
<svu> Sry, not really my business
<clarkbw> also, can the keyboard icon be made to show for the prefs app icon?
<svu> where would you put this icon?
<svu> there is an icon for the capplet IIRC
<clarkbw> yes, but it doesn't show during [alt]-[tab]
<clarkbw> it just appears as a blank icon
<clarkbw> since we have an icon for the launcher, i'd recommend using it for the app icon as well
<jody> clarkbw: doable.
<svu> OK. This is a real bug. Could you please file it so I would fix it?
<clarkbw> svu, as far as the keyboard capplet goes i think you did a great job with everything else
<-- seth has quit (Leaving)
<clarkbw> svu, i'll file the bug in a little bit
<svu> clarkbw: thanks. With the help of jody:)
<jody> clarkbw: any preferences for keeping the keyboard layout in the keyboard capplet or moving it to an intl capplet
<svu> So we leave the "Reset" button on the 3rd tab as it is now, dont we?
<jody> There is also talk of merging the keybindings into the keyboard capplet in its place
<svu> jody: I was going to ask this question!:)
<svu> about the i18n capplet
<clarkbw> svu, yes, the reset buttons necessary; but it sucks that it effects both tabs (far off for now and should probably be a bug to get some discussion)
<svu> clarkbw: there is really a lot of ideas about this i18n capplet
<clarkbw> the core layout is about choosing a keyboard type
<svu> carlos offers to SPLIT the layouts settings and "advanced" options. So layout settings would go to i18n capplet, and the rest (4th tab) remains in the keyboard properties
<clarkbw> but the difference between model and the layout seem confusing
<clarkbw> model sounds like "brand" of keyboard, which appears more akin to the adv. options
<svu> really confusing? I find it so natural... Model is what kind of HW you got. Layout is which characters you want to enter
<svu> Simple and intuitive...
<clarkbw> i think it's easy to understand what the model is
<clarkbw> but the layout system does tend to favor an i18n type capplet
<clarkbw> however it toes the line by being a keyboard property
<clarkbw> i think a new system need to be worked out
<clarkbw> one that is more visual and less 'option choosing' based
<clarkbw> something with a picture of a keyboard laid out and what keys are available with the current config
<clarkbw> then as you choose models it changes the layout accordingly
<clarkbw> this will allow people to recognize their layout against what is displayed on the screen
<svu> makes sense. It IS going to happen. Just not now.
<svu> There is kbdraw gtk widget which really shows the current keyboard. And I am planning to use it. Just matter of time. When gswitchit was standalone, I used xkbprint+ggv to do the "preview" but it was dirty hack because of some bonobo "peculiarities"
<svu> I'm just afraid this preview will become tab #5:)
<clarkbw> no way :-)
<clarkbw> we should work on a design for a visual keyboard chooser
<clarkbw> if you have screenshots of what your were doing
<svu> ????
<svu> Preview in the old gswitchit, you mean?
<clarkbw> yes, i've never used the old gswitchit
<svu> http://gswitchit.sourceforge.net/, look at the screenshots 3 and 4 - there is "Preview" button and ggv
<clarkbw> interesting
<svu> You see, it was not very pretty. There was some "embedded" version as well - but it was even more problematic (again thanks to bonobo)
<svu> So I ended up NOT using bonobo and just popping ggv window
<clarkbw> yes, we would want to use an embedded type that updates as you change the layout
<svu> With kbdraw we have a good chance to have it
<svu> The question will be where to put it?:)
<clarkbw> that sounds great, hopefully we can see that in the next version
<svu> Well, the question not for now. Forget. Let's return back to i18n capplet and splitting xkb settings
<clarkbw> once you get it working we can figure that out
<svu> keyboard capplet IS working. When i18n capplet is going to work - I do not know, ask carlos. But the earlier we make the decition, the easier life will be for me and for him. No waste of time, you know:)
<clarkbw> sorry, i was referring to getting kbdraw working :)
<svu> ok. Actually, it is already in gnome cvs, so you can try. There is some tiny test app IIRC
<clarkbw> svu,  i think the split is to much to do for now.  i don't think the release team would allow me to request that much of a ui change
<clarkbw> looking into kbdraw and the i18n applet should be for the 2.8 release
<clarkbw> maybe if we had planned this out before, but now that I'm aware of it we can work on it along the way
<svu> roger that. Bad news for carlos:)
<svu> ok, this is closed. Can I summarize our review now?
<svu> Just not to forget, you know
<svu> First, there is a bug with expanding models. This bug should be CCed to owen probably to discuss it gtk-wise.
<clarkbw> yes
<svu> Then, there is a bug with resizability. Easy to fix, I'll do it
<clarkbw> yes
<svu> Then, there is a big with the icon. Easy to fix, I'll do it as well probably
<clarkbw> yes
<svu> So, 3 bugs only! I am jumping:)
<svu> Would you fill them please clarkbw?
<clarkbw> yes i will, and i'll attach our chat log
<svu> Lovely. Thanks. I think I am happy enough now:)
<clarkbw> thanks for working with me, your enthusiasm is great :)
<svu> :) thanks thanks thanks. Sometimes I'm just afraid my enthusiasm is a bit annoying for people around:)
<svu> So, jody, probably it's your turn now with other capplets:)
<clarkbw> svu, oh i never answered your question about the dialog in gnumeric
<clarkbw> there is a quick way to insert rows/columns from the menu Insert -> Row or Insert -> Column
<clarkbw> the dialog provides more control over inserting, but could possibly be removed
<svu> got it. Thanks. I just was scared that this dialog is the only way:)
