
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 27 16:05:46 2002

Nov 27 16:05:47 -->	You are now talking on #ui-review
Nov 27 16:06:33 <irene>	Hi guys, I promised to get back to you today about why the docs 
Nov 27 16:06:33 <irene>	team advises against using the 's genitive form.
Nov 27 16:07:00 <Eimi>	Yeah, what's the final word on that?
Nov 27 16:07:27 <irene>	Please think beyond the usage we discussed yesterday (Insert User's Name) when you are considering these reasons as that particular example is a simple one but because the genitive form can be more complex, we advise avoiding it altogether.
Nov 27 16:07:51 <irene>	The reasons...
Nov 27 16:08:08 <irene>	- Potential confusion with other 's forms such as the contraction of 'is' (e.g it's) and contraction of 'has' (e.g he's) 
Nov 27 16:08:28 <irene>	- 's is commonly used incorrectly to indicate a plural possessive form.
Nov 27 16:09:02 <irene>	- There are many users of an English-language UI for whom English  is not their first language. For this reason, we have to be sure that the language is as clear and unambiguous as possible. The 's genitive form, in particular the plural form, is often incorrectly used by native English users, so there is a strong possibility of it causing some confusion for non-English-native users.  
Nov 27 16:09:30 <irene>	- Machine translators often have problems with the 's genitive.
Nov 27 16:10:01 <irene>	In fact, I know that if I try to submit a book through the Sun publishing processes today which contains an 's form, a localization checking tool will give me an error because it doesn't know how to interpret the 's because of the other possible uses outlined above.
Nov 27 16:10:55 <irene>	The docs team always avoid this genitive form in documentation. You are not obliged to do the same in the UI but it is advisable in order to avoid potential problems for non-native English users and translators.
Nov 27 16:11:17 <irene>	For the particular label where this issue arose, I'd vote for a suggestion Eimi made yesterday "Insert Your Name".
Nov 27 16:11:31 <Eimi>	It just really feels like we're avoiding the best English term because of potential problems with a bunch of other things.  Actually, I'm not sure that "Insert User Name" is grammatically correct anyway.
Nov 27 16:11:45 <Eimi>	Hmmm, I thought there were issues with "you"...or am I mistaken?
Nov 27 16:12:15 <irene>	Not that I know of.
Nov 27 16:13:05 <cal_LAP>	well, it might not be your name that gets inserted, for one thing :)
Nov 27 16:13:13 <Eimi>	Nevermind, I think I'm flashing back to my work as a TA.  We were told never to use "You" in grading papers.
Nov 27 16:13:18 <irene>	eimi: I think the "bunch of other things" are important though like catering for a wider audience and avoiding potential L10N problems.
Nov 27 16:13:29 <cal_LAP>	e.g. if you're using a shared login, or the system just isn't set up with your name for some other reason...
Nov 27 16:13:45 <cal_LAP>	but maybe that's just being pedantic :)
Nov 27 16:13:46 <Eimi>	cal_LAP: that's why the feature is crack anyway
Nov 27 16:14:57 <irene>	cal_LAP: I think we have to direct the questions and labels at the current user though, as in "you" and "your" this and that.
Nov 27 16:15:14 <cal_LAP>	irene: yes, you're probably right
Nov 27 16:15:30 <Eimi>	irene: sounds more direct than talking about "the user" anyway, so I'm fine with that
Nov 27 16:15:48 <irene>	BTW We will also update Appendix C of the Style Guide to make it clear that we are talking about the English-language genitive form. I can't say when we'll do this but it's on the ToDo list now anyway. 
Nov 27 16:16:09 <irene>	eimi: ok
Nov 27 16:16:45 <Eimi>	I still think it's annoying that English isn't allowed to have the best form in general, for places where anything else is awkward.  But I'll leave that until we find a place where everything else is awkward.
Nov 27 16:17:02 <Eimi>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/edit-menu.png
Nov 27 16:17:15 <Eimi>	Did we mention that Preferences... shouldn't have the ...?  I can't remember
Nov 27 16:17:29 <irene>	Yes, I think so.
Nov 27 16:17:34 <Eimi>	ok
Nov 27 16:17:46 <Eimi>	Where are we now?
Nov 27 16:18:23 <irene>	Do we want to go into the Preferences dialog? 
Nov 27 16:19:14 <Eimi>	I think we'll have to eventually
Nov 27 16:19:36 <cal_LAP>	can we just do the menus first and the dialogs afterwards?
Nov 27 16:19:54 <irene>	OK, that's probably better alright.
Nov 27 16:20:39 <irene>	Were we finished http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/view-menu.png ?
Nov 27 16:20:44 <Eimi>	I think we were on http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/view-menu.png and got distracted by the Customize Toolbar
Nov 27 16:20:53 <Eimi>	What's on Customize Status Bar?
Nov 27 16:21:27 <irene>	Don't know, I don't have the latest version.
Nov 27 16:22:22 <Eimi>	and what does Tag List do?
Nov 27 16:22:39 <Eimi>	other than that, yeah, I think we're done with that menu
Nov 27 16:23:20 <irene>	It displays a list of markup language tags that you can use like HTML or SGML tags.
Nov 27 16:23:45 ---	Gnils is now known as GnilsAFC
Nov 27 16:24:02 <Eimi>	ok
Nov 27 16:24:03 <huey_away>	about the View menu: is the Output window a plugin?
Nov 27 16:24:46 ---	huey_away is now known as huey_
Nov 27 16:25:05 <irene>	Don't know, it wasn't a plugin in older versions of gedit anyway.
Nov 27 16:25:11 <cal_LAP>	the output window isn't a plugin, no
Nov 27 16:25:24 <Eimi>	What does it do, then?
Nov 27 16:25:37 <cal_LAP>	Customize Statusbar has two entries: "Show Cursor Position" and "Show Overwrite Mode"
Nov 27 16:25:51 <huey_>	Eimi: that's what I'd like to know :)
Nov 27 16:26:26 <Eimi>	Hmmm, neither of those seem worth customizing.  Maybe they should go in the prefs dialog, but seem worthless
Nov 27 16:27:16 <huey_>	perhaps rightclicking on the statusbar could quickly toggle this 
Nov 27 16:27:24 <huey_>	(via a context menu)
Nov 27 16:27:44 <cal_LAP>	prefs would be better, clicking on statusbar isn't keyboard accessible (although you could implement both)
Nov 27 16:27:59 <huey_>	cal_LAP: that's what I intended to say
Nov 27 16:29:59 <Eimi>	Anything else on that menu?
Nov 27 16:31:10 <cal_LAP>	should 'ASCII Table' be called 'Character Map' or something, to be more like the Character Map accessory?
Nov 27 16:31:24 <cal_LAP>	or does everyone know what an 'ASCII Table' is :)
Nov 27 16:31:49 <huey_>	cal_LAP: why doesn't it call the character map in the first place?
Nov 27 16:32:01 <Eimi>	cal_LAP: it should be called Character Map, and be under the Accessories submenu of the Applications menu :)
Nov 27 16:32:16 <cal_LAP>	would be nice if it did, the functionality is currently slightly different although I don't know how usefully so
Nov 27 16:33:56 <irene>	It should be looked into anyway.
Nov 27 16:35:24 <irene>	Will we move on?
Nov 27 16:35:47 <cal_LAP>	ok... http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/search-menu.png
Nov 27 16:36:37 <cal_LAP>	auspex would complain bitterly that the search functions aren't on the Edit menu, if he wasn't AFC :)
Nov 27 16:37:29 <irene>	s/Goto Line/Go to Line
Nov 27 16:37:49 <cal_LAP>	I'd like a shortcut for Goto Line as well, it always annoys me when I use it... dunno what's available though
Nov 27 16:38:22 <Eimi>	Should that take a ..., and might it somehow indicate that it works by line number?  (assuming it does)
Nov 27 16:39:28 <cal_LAP>	it should have an ellipsis, yes... and "Go to Line Number..." might be clearer, you're right...
Nov 27 16:39:31 <Eimi>	is Ctrl-L taken by anything?
Nov 27 16:39:54 <cal_LAP>	Not currently, but we suggested it for File->Open Location...
Nov 27 16:40:07 <Eimi>	ahh
Nov 27 16:41:47 <cal_LAP>	would a "Find Previous" command be useful?
Nov 27 16:41:56 <cal_LAP>	(Shift-Ctrl-G)
Nov 27 16:41:56 <huey_>	s/Replace/Find and Replace
Nov 27 16:42:22 <huey_>	Find Next should be grayed out if no previous find action has been performed???
Nov 27 16:42:28 <cal_LAP>	yes, it should
Nov 27 16:42:38 <cal_LAP>	hmm... "Replace..." is the current HIG recommendation...
Nov 27 16:42:57 <cal_LAP>	and "Find...", so either way they're both missing ellipses
Nov 27 16:43:24 <huey_>	just 'replace' doesn't describe very well what will happen right?
Nov 27 16:43:59 <cal_LAP>	I suppose, but at least it makes it easier to pick out, rather than having three or four menu items that all start with "Find"...
Nov 27 16:44:09 <huey_>	ok...
Nov 27 16:44:26 <cal_LAP>	you can file a bug against the HIG about that one if you like though :)
Nov 27 16:44:55 *	huey_ isn't sure it's that important
Nov 27 16:45:32 <huey_>	brb
Nov 27 16:45:45 -->	paolo (~paolo@213.213.114.141) has joined #ui-review
Nov 27 16:48:20 <irene>	Anything else on the Search menu?
Nov 27 16:48:53 <Eimi>	Is there are reason all of this isn't on the Edit menu?
Nov 27 16:49:00 <Eimi>	or has all of that been beaten to death already?
Nov 27 16:50:07 <cal_LAP>	paolo and I discussed it at the time and he didn't want to put them there because he was planning lots more Search functionality and thought there would be too much for the Edit menu...
Nov 27 16:50:14 <cal_LAP>	but I don't see much evidence of that yet :)
Nov 27 16:50:43 <Eimi>	I'd suggest moving it to Edit until said functionality materializes :-P
Nov 27 16:51:52 <Eimi>	ok, http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/tools-menu.png
Nov 27 16:52:21 <Eimi>	The submenu should just be pushed into the main menu
Nov 27 16:52:38 <irene>	I was just about to say the same.
Nov 27 16:53:28 <cal_LAP>	yeah, makes sense... you shouldn't have a submenu title with an ellipsis anyway :)
Nov 27 16:53:40 <irene>	And could the Auto Spellcheck option be incorporated into the Check Spelling dialog?
Nov 27 16:54:53 <cal_LAP>	I don't think so, the 'Check Spelling' dialog isn't really an options dialog, it seems...
Nov 27 16:55:05 <cal_LAP>	so "Check Spelling" shouldn't really have an ellipsis actually
Nov 27 16:55:18 <irene>	Oh, I see.
Nov 27 16:55:20 <cal_LAP>	it looks like "Check Spelling" only pops up a dialog if it finds a mis-spelled word
Nov 27 16:56:24 <cal_LAP>	yes it does, in fact... this one: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/spell-checker.png
Nov 27 16:56:26 <Eimi>	What does it do if there are no spelling errors?
Nov 27 16:56:41 <cal_LAP>	pops up an information alert saying 'so
Nov 27 16:56:46 <Eimi>	ok, good
Nov 27 16:57:36 <irene>	s/Auto Spellcheck/Autocheck Spelling ?
Nov 27 16:58:11 <Eimi>	Continuously Check Spelling?
Nov 27 16:58:16 <paolo>	I have copied that menu from OOo if I recall correctly
Nov 27 16:58:42 *	cal_LAP checks StarOffice
Nov 27 16:59:32 <Eimi>	Actually, I like Word's Check Spelling As I Type (or should it be "As You Type"?)
Nov 27 16:59:47 <irene>	Actually, should the menu item be moved the Preferences altogether?
Nov 27 16:59:57 <paolo>	hmm... no I was wrong. I made a mix between OO and abiword
Nov 27 17:00:12 <paolo>	irene: ?
Nov 27 17:00:17 <Eimi>	yeah, that would make sense
Nov 27 17:00:19 <cal_LAP>	paolo: well, you're half-right, it's called "AutoSpellcheck" in StarOffice ... all one word :)
Nov 27 17:01:16 <paolo>	so what do you suggest?
Nov 27 17:01:55 <Eimi>	I'd suggest moving it to the prefs and giving it a more verbose name there
Nov 27 17:02:06 <paolo>	why prefs?
Nov 27 17:02:20 <paolo>	It has nothing to do with prefs?
Nov 27 17:02:39 <paolo>	You can chose to autospell check a document A but not document B
Nov 27 17:02:47 ---	GnilsAFC is now known as Gnils
Nov 27 17:03:07 <paolo>	So as you can set language English for doc A and italian for doc B
Nov 27 17:03:41 <Eimi>	btw, how is all this stored and defaulted?  I assume it doesn't store it per document...
Nov 27 17:03:53 <paolo>	you really don't want to auto spell check a C++ source file, but you would like to spell check a LaTeX document
Nov 27 17:04:50 <Eimi>	I see it more as a matter of you always want auto spell checking, or never
Nov 27 17:04:59 <Eimi>	and those are just different languages
Nov 27 17:05:16 <paolo>	they aGNOMEVER2.0
Nov 27 17:05:21 <paolo>	oops
Nov 27 17:05:30 <Eimi>	your C++ source file is in the language "No Proofing", or something.
Nov 27 17:05:38 <Eimi>	but I have an odd way of looking at things like that
Nov 27 17:06:32 <paolo>	I think the current behavior is the one users are used to
Nov 27 17:07:09 <Eimi>	So Auto Spellcheck is a per document setting?
Nov 27 17:07:16 <Eimi>	Is it off everytime you open a new document?
Nov 27 17:07:19 <paolo>	you have the same in OOo, abiword and MS Word
Nov 27 17:07:27 <paolo>	Eimi: yep
Nov 27 17:07:38 <cal_LAP>	yeah, I think for a simple text editor it's probably fine just to have it on the menu so you can switch it on or off quickly
Nov 27 17:08:00 <cal_LAP>	although *maybe* set language and autospellcheck could be combined into a "Spelling Preferences" dialog
Nov 27 17:08:08 <cal_LAP>	but I'm not sure there's much advantage in that
Nov 27 17:08:31 <Eimi>	it works on the menu, I guess
Nov 27 17:09:09 <paolo>	cal_LAP: note that I will implement a "Spelling Preferences" dialog to set the defaults from the Plugin Manager
Nov 27 17:09:35 <cal_LAP>	ok...
Nov 27 17:09:39 <irene>	So, we've suggested that the first menu item is "Check Spelling". Should that be changed to something like Check Spelling Now to avoid confusion with the next menu item?
Nov 27 17:09:48 <paolo>	as you can set the default for the time plugin and other ones
Nov 27 17:11:04 <paolo>	hmmm... I'm confused
Nov 27 17:11:14 <paolo>	How do you suggest to call the submenu?
Nov 27 17:11:50 <huey_>	Why is 'Word Count' a tool? I'd say it's more suitable for a field on the statusbar.
Nov 27 17:11:53 <irene>	Now, I'm confused too. Did we say we don't need the submenu?
Nov 27 17:12:15 <cal_LAP>	yes, we suggested just moving the two items to the top level
Nov 27 17:12:22 <paolo>	ok
Nov 27 17:13:01 <paolo>	and then?
Nov 27 17:13:12 <irene>	So, we'd have "Check Spelling Now" / "Autocheck Spelling" / "Set Language" ?
Nov 27 17:13:42 <Eimi>	yep
Nov 27 17:14:00 <Eimi>	Shouldn't that be "Set Language..."
Nov 27 17:14:10 <irene>	Probably
Nov 27 17:14:24 <paolo>	hmmm... I think "Check Spelling Now" is confusing since also with autocheck you are check spelling now
Nov 27 17:14:57 <irene>	Maybe, Check Spelling and Autocheck Spelling works ok I think.
Nov 27 17:15:04 <paolo>	i.e. I think Check Spelling is better
Nov 27 17:15:09 <paolo>	ok
Nov 27 17:15:50 <irene>	Should Set Language be "Set Document Language" to make it clear you're only setting the language for the current doc?
Nov 27 17:16:06 <cal_LAP>	paolo: probably need a place to choose the 'mis-spelled word' colour too, for accessibility... or better still, just choose some colour from the current theme
Nov 27 17:16:39 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep, in the pref dialog I will implement
Nov 27 17:16:42 <cal_LAP>	cool
Nov 27 17:17:43 <paolo>	Should they be "Set Language..." and "Check Speeling..."?
Nov 27 17:18:30 <cal_LAP>	Yes for Set Language, but no for Check Spelling I think...
Nov 27 17:18:37 <paolo>	ok
Nov 27 17:18:38 <irene>	To match the language of the other menu items s/Word Count/Show Wordcount ?
Nov 27 17:18:48 <Eimi>	Is there a reason it's "Set Language" instead of, say "Document Language"?
Nov 27 17:19:01 <Eimi>	I'd say "Show Word Count"
Nov 27 17:20:11 <huey_>	Eimi: why is this something special? the word count is so simple it could be on the statusbar.
Nov 27 17:20:19 <irene>	Eimi: That is more correct alright although wordcount has become a recognized term. We don't have this defined in the GDSG yet.
Nov 27 17:20:37 <cal_LAP>	since it's an action rather than a setting, shouldn't it be "Count words"....?
Nov 27 17:20:57 <paolo>	cal_LAP: I agree
Nov 27 17:21:07 <Eimi>	huey_: Feels like clutter to have it always showing...and see http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/word-count-dialog.png 
Nov 27 17:21:44 <irene>	cal_LAP: I thought of that wording too but changed my mind. I can go with that.
Nov 27 17:21:46 <huey_>	that's not Word Count. That's Document Statistics! 
Nov 27 17:21:52 <paolo>	huey_: I cannot put it in the status bar since it a quite expensive function
Nov 27 17:22:08 <paolo>	huey_: yeah, good name
Nov 27 17:22:23 <Eimi>	huey_: excellent, much better
Nov 27 17:22:56 <paolo>	so the menu item should be "Compute Document Statistics"
Nov 27 17:23:02 <paolo>	do you agree?
Nov 27 17:23:22 <paolo>	or simply "Document Statistics"?
Nov 27 17:23:32 <irene>	I'd say "Show Document Statistics".
Nov 27 17:23:37 <cal_LAP>	hmm... in Word and OO, it's called File->Properties :)
Nov 27 17:24:34 <paolo>	cal_LAP: File Properties are quite different since IIRC it also shows info about the creating date, author and so on
Nov 27 17:24:47 <paolo>	s/creating/creation
Nov 27 17:25:04 <cal_LAP>	yes, it does, but maybe that's just 'additional' rather than 'different'...?  I dunno...
Nov 27 17:25:13 <cal_LAP>	I guess it depends if you have any plans to add those other things to gedit too
Nov 27 17:25:22 <paolo>	cal_LAP: no
Nov 27 17:25:45 <cal_LAP>	that solves that problem then :)
Nov 27 17:25:55 <paolo>	irene: I don't like show since then we should have hide too and put that in the View menu
Nov 27 17:26:15 <cal_LAP>	still might be the first place users look for it if they're used to Word/OO though, but that doesn't matter I guess
Nov 27 17:26:31 <irene>	paolo: You're right, "Document Statistics" is ok because it's in a different section of the Tools menu to the other task-oriented items.
Nov 27 17:26:51 <irene>	So, what have we now for the menu items?
Nov 27 17:26:56 <paolo>	cal_LAP: IIRC, MS word has a "Word Count" menu item in the tool menu
Nov 27 17:27:18 <paolo>	like abiword
Nov 27 17:27:30 <paolo>	I copyed the idea from there
Nov 27 17:27:34 <cal_LAP>	heh, ok
Nov 27 17:28:12 <paolo>	what about the "Document Statistics" dialog?
Nov 27 17:28:14 <huey_>	abiword is so completely copied from Word it makes me not want to use it
Nov 27 17:28:52 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/word-count-dialog.png
Nov 27 17:29:21 <Eimi>	I thought we were going to do the menus first, then the dialogs?
Nov 27 17:29:34 <paolo>	ok, sorry
Nov 27 17:29:53 <paolo>	Documents Menu then : http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/documents-menu.png
Nov 27 17:30:03 <irene>	Hold on ... s/Execute Shell Command/Run Shell Command - in the GDSG we have defined the verb "run" as the verb to use to describe running a program, script, or application from a command line. For consistency across the UI we should change it here.
Nov 27 17:30:18 <Eimi>	good
Nov 27 17:30:22 <paolo>	irene: ok
Nov 27 17:30:31 <Eimi>	what makes it a "Shell" command?
Nov 27 17:31:15 <paolo>	hehe... good point I called it in this way since the original author of the plugin called it in this way
Nov 27 17:31:30 <huey_>	why is it easier to 'Run a shell command' than to open a terminal next to gedit and do whatever it is I want to do from the shell?
Nov 27 17:32:12 <paolo>	huey_: since you can run "latex %N" on the current document and see the result in the Output Window
Nov 27 17:32:31 <irene>	Eimi: True, can we just say "Run Command"?
Nov 27 17:32:38 <Eimi>	There's nothing in that dialog that hints at %N
Nov 27 17:32:55 <cal_LAP>	I was going to say that, but decided to wait as we're not doing dialogs yet :)
Nov 27 17:32:55 <paolo>	This is what Help button needs to
Nov 27 17:32:59 <huey_>	aha
Nov 27 17:33:58 <huey_>	and what happens if the shell command modifies the currently open file?
Nov 27 17:34:11 <paolo>	s/Execute Shell Command/Run Command... is it ok?
Nov 27 17:34:35 <Eimi>	sounds about right to me
Nov 27 17:34:37 <cal_LAP>	yep
Nov 27 17:34:43 <paolo>	huey_: the buffered copy it will differed by the saved one
Nov 27 17:34:54 <paolo>	s/will/wil be
Nov 27 17:35:32 *	paolo should type slowly
Nov 27 17:36:01 <huey_>	perhaps gedit should warn when a opened file gets modified externally. 
Nov 27 17:36:28 <paolo>	huey_: it will (we have an open bug about it)
Nov 27 17:36:54 <huey_>	ok
Nov 27 17:37:37 <paolo>	Documents menu? (Please, put up your "I love MDI" hat)
Nov 27 17:38:23 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/documents-menu.png
Nov 27 17:38:26 <irene>	No comments from me. 
Nov 27 17:39:01 <irene>	Although, wouldn't the Save All and Close All options usually be on the File menu?
Nov 27 17:39:03 *	huey_ thinks Save All belongs in the File menu
Nov 27 17:39:16 <paolo>	I will add a "Move to New Window" menu item just before the list of open documents
Nov 27 17:39:23 <cal_LAP>	maybe the documents list should be numbered (like the recently used list on the File menu), dunno...
Nov 27 17:39:38 <cal_LAP>	the HIG currently recommends putting Save All and Close All where paolo has them, IIRC...
Nov 27 17:39:49 <paolo>	yep
Nov 27 17:39:52 <cal_LAP>	probably an attempt to keep MDI stuff off the File menu :)
Nov 27 17:39:55 <Eimi>	numbered would make for handy accessor keys
Nov 27 17:40:09 <huey_>	oh? well, ok. 
Nov 27 17:40:15 <paolo>	numbers works only you have < 10 open documents
Nov 27 17:40:27 <huey_>	Does gedit stay opened when you do Close All?
Nov 27 17:40:29 <cal_LAP>	Eimi: well, the access keys would be the same as they currently are, really, they'd just be shown differently :)
Nov 27 17:40:34 <paolo>	huey_: yes
Nov 27 17:40:59 <huey_>	paolo: I believe EOG doesn't, there's not really consistent behaviour here between apps
Nov 27 17:41:10 <Eimi>	cal_LAP: ?  I mean you could press "3" in that menu
Nov 27 17:41:10 <paolo>	huey_: eog is a SDI app
Nov 27 17:41:21 <cal_LAP>	Eimi: oh yes, you're right...
Nov 27 17:41:27 <huey_>	is it?
Nov 27 17:41:36 <paolo>	huey_: yes
Nov 27 17:42:24 <paolo>	ok I will adds numbers to the first 9 open documents
Nov 27 17:43:10 <cal_LAP>	sounds good
Nov 27 17:43:37 <paolo>	can we start with dialogs?
Nov 27 17:43:37 <huey_>	paolo: I was a bit confused, but see bug 85190
Nov 27 17:43:48 <cal_LAP>	you could put the next 9 in a "More >" submenu, then you could re-use the 9 numbers for those :)
Nov 27 17:43:58 <cal_LAP>	(and so on ad infinitum...)
Nov 27 17:44:31 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep, but I'm not sure it is a good idea and it is also more difficult to implement
Nov 27 17:44:34 *	Eimi assaults cal_LAP
Nov 27 17:44:35 <huey_>	cal_LAP: please no more than 2 level deep submenus. Have a Buffer Switcher window or something instead of that
Nov 27 17:44:40 <paolo>	but in the future I could implement it
Nov 27 17:45:11 <cal_LAP>	huey_: well, who's going to have > 20 documents open in gedit anyway? :)
Nov 27 17:45:29 <Eimi>	Obviously after 9 comes A-F, and then 10 :)
Nov 27 17:45:44 <huey_>	cal_LAP: someone with much trust in gedit's stability
Nov 27 17:45:57 <paolo>	huey_: in eog you open each image in a new window
Nov 27 17:46:00 <cal_LAP>	and a very wide screen for navigating the tabs? :)
Nov 27 17:46:55 <paolo>	can we start with dialogs?
Nov 27 17:47:00 <Eimi>	sure
Nov 27 17:47:05 <cal_LAP>	ok
Nov 27 17:47:17 <Eimi>	and a severe need for a Real Text Editor
Nov 27 17:47:18 *	Eimi ducks
Nov 27 17:47:40 <paolo>	Find/Replace dialog: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/find-replace.png
Nov 27 17:47:54 <paolo>	Eimi: what is so wrong with gedit?
Nov 27 17:48:25 <Eimi>	nothing.  I'm just a vi loon
Nov 27 17:48:55 <Eimi>	I meant to have a smilie on that line
Nov 27 17:48:56 <paolo>	Eimi: ok (I use vi too, when writing code)
Nov 27 17:49:03 <paolo>	Eimi: yep, np
Nov 27 17:49:28 <Eimi>	"Search from" probably shouldn't be bold
Nov 27 17:49:39 <cal_LAP>	hmm, another case for the "what order should buttons go in a Find dialog" team :)
Nov 27 17:49:43 <paolo>	I'm going to remove the "Search From" stuff
Nov 27 17:49:57 <Eimi>	oh, well that saves that problem
Nov 27 17:50:10 <Gnils>	paolo: i guess by the drop downs it remebers the previous n searches
Nov 27 17:50:19 <paolo>	and as cal_LAP suggested in bug #93026 I will replace it with a "Wrap Around" check button
Nov 27 17:50:27 <paolo>	Gnils: yep
Nov 27 17:50:32 <Gnils>	n=?
Nov 27 17:50:47 <paolo>	Gnils: ?
Nov 27 17:50:59 <Eimi>	how many does it remember?
Nov 27 17:51:02 <Gnils>	yes
Nov 27 17:51:04 <Gnils>	:)
Nov 27 17:51:40 <paolo>	hmm... dunno remember (I think 10), lemme see
Nov 27 17:52:05 <Gnils>	lets say i do asearch for foo
Nov 27 17:52:07 <paolo>	ok, 10
Nov 27 17:52:12 <Gnils>	then i close the dialog
Nov 27 17:52:22 <Gnils>	when i bring the dialog up again
Nov 27 17:52:26 <Gnils>	what happens
Nov 27 17:52:45 <Gnils>	is search prepopulated with foo
Nov 27 17:52:46 <paolo>	it will show the last word you searched in the active document
Nov 27 17:53:03 <cal_LAP>	and it's preselected so you can quickly overtype, nice
Nov 27 17:53:11 <paolo>	yep
Nov 27 17:53:17 <paolo>	the same for replace
Nov 27 17:53:51 <Gnils>	so each search and replace buffer is per document
Nov 27 17:54:10 <paolo>	I'm also going to replace "Case sensitive" with "Match case"
Nov 27 17:54:24 <cal_LAP>	Gnils: yes, it's per-doc
Nov 27 17:54:43 <paolo>	Gnils: hmm... the list of saved preseached words is global
Nov 27 17:54:49 <paolo>	the selected one is per document
Nov 27 17:54:55 <cal_LAP>	ah, right
Nov 27 17:55:15 <huey_>	perhaps replace the 'Search from' header by complete sentences after the radio buttons. Two GUI elements forming sentences together is bad for l10n
Nov 27 17:55:51 <Gnils>	do you save the global ones across gedit 'sessions'
Nov 27 17:55:52 <huey_>	paolo: the replace window is nonmodal?
Nov 27 17:55:55 <cal_LAP>	huey_: good point, but those controls are about to be removed anyway :)
Nov 27 17:56:00 <paolo>	Gnils: yep
Nov 27 17:56:09 <paolo>	huey_: uep
Nov 27 17:56:40 <Gnils>	paolo: cool
Nov 27 17:56:56 <Eimi>	does the replace window always affect the current document?
Nov 27 17:57:02 <Eimi>	ie, if you switch tabs while it's open?
Nov 27 17:57:05 <paolo>	Eimi: yes
Nov 27 17:57:12 <Eimi>	groovy
Nov 27 17:57:55 <irene>	Folks, I have to sign off now I'm afraid...bye.
Nov 27 17:58:00 <paolo>	What about the button sequence? I'm not sure it is the right one
Nov 27 17:58:03 <huey_>	irene: bye
Nov 27 17:58:09 <paolo>	irene: bye, thanks
Nov 27 17:58:30 <cal_LAP>	paolo: yeah, we've never really decided what it should be for Find dialogs, there's also a bug open against gnome-search-tool I think :)
Nov 27 17:58:38 <--	irene has quit ()
Nov 27 17:59:09 <cal_LAP>	I *think* it should maybe be Replace All | Replace | <small gap> | Close | Find, but I'm not sure :)
Nov 27 17:59:13 <paolo>	Probably it should be "Replace All" "Replace" "Close" "Find"
Nov 27 17:59:29 <cal_LAP>	the HIG isn't clear on this one unfortunately :/
Nov 27 17:59:34 <huey_>	paolo: since this is the Replace window, why have Find *and* Replace buttons? Perhaps one button 'Replace next (occurence)' would be enough
Nov 27 17:59:36 <paolo>	cal_LAP: small gaps are not easy to implement
Nov 27 17:59:44 <cal_LAP>	well ok, forget the small gap :)
Nov 27 18:00:08 <paolo>	huey_: you can find it as a normal Find dialog if you want
Nov 27 18:00:18 <paolo>	s/you can find/you can use
Nov 27 18:00:41 <huey_>	hmm, then why have two different menu items for it
Nov 27 18:00:56 <paolo>	are you can skip an element pressing Find twice
Nov 27 18:00:57 <cal_LAP>	right, that's one of auspex's hobby-horses as well :)
Nov 27 18:01:05 <paolo>	s/are/or
Nov 27 18:01:06 <Eimi>	typically you use it if you don't know that you want to change all occurrences
Nov 27 18:01:30 <cal_LAP>	the HIG currently recommends separate menu items for both, but we should probably think about changing that
Nov 27 18:01:33 <huey_>	Eimi/paolo: ok
Nov 27 18:02:21 <paolo>	cal_LAP: dunno if it is a good idea
Nov 27 18:02:42 <paolo>	in the Find dialog I could add a "Count occurrences" button
Nov 27 18:02:52 <paolo>	and/or a Find All one
Nov 27 18:03:06 <cal_LAP>	I don't know either, but there's a bug open about it so we'll have to decide sometime :)
Nov 27 18:03:23 <paolo>	other comments on this dialog?
Nov 27 18:03:47 <paolo>	To summarize:
Nov 27 18:04:01 <huey_>	paolo: is the Information window necessary? (eg could this info be displayed in the statusbar?)
Nov 27 18:04:16 <paolo>	1. Replace Seach from stuff with "Wrap around"
Nov 27 18:04:46 <paolo>	huey_: it is not necessary but you have it as a feedback when you use Replace All
Nov 27 18:05:08 <paolo>	2. s/Case sensitive/Match case (do you agree?)
Nov 27 18:05:27 <paolo>	3. wait for a devision on buttons order
Nov 27 18:05:31 <paolo>	is it ok?
Nov 27 18:05:33 <huey_>	would a 'search backwards' option be useful (enough) to add?
Nov 27 18:06:01 <paolo>	yep, I will implement it for 2.4 (please, file a bug report)
Nov 27 18:06:46 <paolo>	Can we pass to the most difficult dialog... the goto line one?
Nov 27 18:07:01 <Eimi>	I assume the Find dialog is the same, except without any of the Replace stuff?
Nov 27 18:07:05 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/goto-line-dialog.png
Nov 27 18:07:08 <paolo>	Eimi: yep
Nov 27 18:07:21 <paolo>	Eimi: on only the "Close" "Find" buttons
Nov 27 18:07:45 <cal_LAP>	s/Goto line/Go to Line, I think
Nov 27 18:07:59 <Eimi>	and same for the title bar
Nov 27 18:08:00 <cal_LAP>	(was that what irene said earlier...?)
Nov 27 18:08:24 <paolo>	ok
Nov 27 18:08:26 <cal_LAP>	yes, and the titlebar shouldn't include the ellipsis
Nov 27 18:09:03 <paolo>	ok
Nov 27 18:09:13 <Eimi>	Actually, I think we'd said "Go to Line Number..." for the menu item
Nov 27 18:09:28 <Eimi>	So we could make the button just "Go"
Nov 27 18:09:37 <huey_>	Eimi: that's because it still needs input
Nov 27 18:10:08 <Eimi>	huey_: I know.  I'm saying the title bar might want to include the word "number"
Nov 27 18:10:09 <Eimi>	or not
Nov 27 18:10:32 <cal_LAP>	yes, the titlebar should match the menu item (without the ellipsis), whatever we decided :)
Nov 27 18:11:49 <paolo>	what next?
Nov 27 18:11:51 <huey_>	what happens when a out of range value is entered?
Nov 27 18:12:23 <paolo>	hmm.. goto to the last line
Nov 27 18:12:36 <huey_>	a negative value?
Nov 27 18:13:04 <huey_>	would a spinbox make sense?
Nov 27 18:13:06 <paolo>	you cannot insert it (as you cannot insert non numbers)
Nov 27 18:13:44 <paolo>	huey_: I don't think the spinbox is the right widget here... I haven't to do fine tuning
Nov 27 18:14:17 <cal_LAP>	I'm not sure a spinbox would help much either, mostly you type in numbers in response to compilation errors etc. so you don't really need to know what the upper limit is
Nov 27 18:14:24 <huey_>	paolo: ok
Nov 27 18:14:27 <cal_LAP>	(I would guess)
Nov 27 18:15:33 <paolo>	Output Window: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/output_window.png
Nov 27 18:16:42 <Eimi>	What do the things along the left do?
Nov 27 18:16:53 <cal_LAP>	close copy and paste, I would guess
Nov 27 18:17:05 <cal_LAP>	oh, close copy and clear, sorry
Nov 27 18:17:15 <paolo>	close, copy selected lines and clear
Nov 27 18:17:23 <cal_LAP>	are there keyboard equivalents for those, or can you tab to them? 
Nov 27 18:17:29 *	cal_LAP wears accessibility hat again
Nov 27 18:18:34 <Eimi>	What happens if you open the output window when no command has been run?
Nov 27 18:18:40 <cal_LAP>	Oh, I guess View->Output window is accessible for "Close"
Nov 27 18:18:45 <paolo>	cal_LAP: you can close/open the output window from the view menu
Nov 27 18:18:48 <cal_LAP>	right...
Nov 27 18:18:56 <huey_>	a close button on the upper left of something? that's not very common.
Nov 27 18:19:03 <cal_LAP>	does Ctrl-C work when items are selected in the output window?
Nov 27 18:19:15 <Eimi>	Why is there a copy icon there, instead of using the main toolbar's copy?
Nov 27 18:19:51 <cal_LAP>	right, should be the same one really, only one pane can have focus at a time so shouldn't be any confusion...
Nov 27 18:19:52 <paolo>	but due to a GtkTextView you cannot tab on them
Nov 27 18:20:15 <paolo>	cal_LAP: Ctrl+C does not work, but I really don't know why
Nov 27 18:20:28 <cal_LAP>	ok...
Nov 27 18:21:11 <paolo>	key navigation of Output Window is a bit broken
Nov 27 18:22:01 <paolo>	Eimi: since in the future I would like to let the user detach the output window from the main window
Nov 27 18:22:14 <cal_LAP>	why is it a list view rather than just another text view?
Nov 27 18:23:05 <paolo>	cal_LAP: since in this way (in the future) you can double click on an error message to go to the relative line
Nov 27 18:23:42 <paolo>	and since UltraEdit use a list view
Nov 27 18:23:59 <cal_LAP>	hmm, ok... might just be nicer to work out how to do that using a text view, would make navigation/selection in the output window easier, maybe...
Nov 27 18:24:18 <cal_LAP>	not a big issue though I guess, once Ctrl-C works :)
Nov 27 18:24:18 <paolo>	probably
Nov 27 18:24:24 <huey_>	paolo: UltraEdit is a programmers' editor! :P
Nov 27 18:25:17 <paolo>	huey_: it is a generic editor you can also use to write code but it does not suport all the cool features of the modern code editors
Nov 27 18:25:51 <paolo>	at least the old version I used to write my PhD thesis 
Nov 27 18:26:12 <huey_>	ok, just kuidding
Nov 27 18:26:49 <paolo>	but I really would like to implement all the features of UltraEdit as plugins
Nov 27 18:27:18 <paolo>	so my collegues will stop to use vmware only to use UltraEdit
Nov 27 18:28:14 <paolo>	other comments on the Output Window?
Nov 27 18:28:19 *	huey_ doesn't get why there are still people not using jEdit for coding :)
Nov 27 18:29:10 <cal_LAP>	Maybe need a menu item or something for clearing it, since you can't get at the button from the keyboard
Nov 27 18:30:10 <cal_LAP>	is gedit using non-standard checkmarks on the menus?  they disappear when I use the inverse theme :/
Nov 27 18:30:16 <paolo>	Ctrl+Del clear it (once you have focused it)
Nov 27 18:30:26 <cal_LAP>	oh, ok, never noticed that
Nov 27 18:30:38 <paolo>	and Del close it
Nov 27 18:30:54 <cal_LAP>	hope that's in the Help :)
Nov 27 18:31:04 <paolo>	cal_LAP: no, it is using libbonoboui
Nov 27 18:31:15 <cal_LAP>	oh, ok... I'll have to file a bug about that :/
Nov 27 18:31:19 <paolo>	it will if someone will write it
Nov 27 18:31:25 <cal_LAP>	heh
Nov 27 18:31:31 <Eimi>	and they don't seem to show up at all in the unchecked states...at least, in the screenshots
Nov 27 18:31:44 <cal_LAP>	no, they don't, that's more of a theme bug I guess though
Nov 27 18:31:57 <cal_LAP>	yeah, you're right, they don't show up in nautilus either, I'd never noticed that before :/
Nov 27 18:32:13 <paolo>	so it is a libbonoboui bug
Nov 27 18:32:25 <cal_LAP>	yep
Nov 27 18:32:33 <paolo>	should thay appear also when they are unchecked?
Nov 27 18:32:50 <cal_LAP>	it would be nice if they did, but that's up to theme author really :/
Nov 27 18:32:58 <paolo>	hmmm... ok
Nov 27 18:33:22 <Eimi>	That's the reason I stopped using the Bubbles theme.
Nov 27 18:33:28 <cal_LAP>	we should file a bug against the default gtk theme as part of the ui-review for this :)
Nov 27 18:33:33 *	paolo needs to improve output window key navigability
Nov 27 18:34:49 <paolo>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/taglist.png
Nov 27 18:36:09 <cal_LAP>	should probably have a Close button, for consistency with things like the ASCII table...?
Nov 27 18:36:33 <paolo>	cal_LAP: I see it more as a toolbox
Nov 27 18:37:02 <huey_>	does the list jump to the first item that starts with a letter when you press the corresponding key?
Nov 27 18:37:23 <cal_LAP>	no, it's just a gtktreeview so you can press Ctrl-F to open a search box though :/
Nov 27 18:37:32 *	cal_LAP never liked that
Nov 27 18:37:39 *	paolo too
Nov 27 18:38:07 <paolo>	probably I should remove the "Tags" header
Nov 27 18:38:32 <Gnils>	is the top drop down  thing a filter
Nov 27 18:38:39 <paolo>	and the line hints (I don't know their name)
Nov 27 18:38:40 <Eimi>	shouldn't be a stripy list, unless that's an artifact of the theme also
Nov 27 18:38:42 <paolo>	Gnils: yep
Nov 27 18:38:45 <cal_LAP>	if this is a toolbox, what's the ASCII table...?  they both let you insert things into the document from a list...
Nov 27 18:39:04 <Gnils>	what are the options
Nov 27 18:39:18 <paolo>	cal_LAP: IMO, ASCII table should be changed
Nov 27 18:39:22 <huey_>	if it's a tree view, why aren't there any leafs? 
Nov 27 18:39:28 <cal_LAP>	it might be nice if the actual tag was shown in the list too, to help you learn them...
Nov 27 18:39:38 <cal_LAP>	huey_: the treeview is used for both lists and trees now
Nov 27 18:39:46 <cal_LAP>	huey_: there's no separate list widget any more
Nov 27 18:39:55 <huey_>	(HTML Tags,+--Head tags--Body Tags) etc
Nov 27 18:40:10 <cal_LAP>	is the column header in the list really useful?  HIG says single-column lists shouldn't generally have them...
Nov 27 18:40:12 <paolo>	Gnils: ATM, HTML-tags, HTML-Special Chars, Latex -Tags, XSLT-Axes, XSLT-Elementsm XSLT-Functions
Nov 27 18:40:36 <paolo>	Gnils: some one is writing a Doocbook tag list but I don't know if it will be ready for 2.2
Nov 27 18:40:42 <huey_>	oh, that's what the dropdown does
Nov 27 18:41:42 <paolo>	cal_LAP: col header should be removed
Nov 27 18:42:19 <Gnils>	and if you click on a tag, it inserts it in the doc?
Nov 27 18:42:30 <paolo>	cal_LAP: not all the tags can be displayd (they can be long)
Nov 27 18:42:34 <paolo>	Gnils: yes
Nov 27 18:43:08 <paolo>	Gnils: and the cursor is placed in the right place inside the tag
Nov 27 18:43:34 <cal_LAP>	paolo: yeah, I know, would still be nice to have the option somehow though... anyway, that's more of an enhancement request, and that's not what we're here for :)
Nov 27 18:43:42 <Gnils>	is there any way you can group the tags, to say frequency of use (common ones), by the looks of the scroll bar - its a very long list
Nov 27 18:44:43 <paolo>	Gnils: no, the newest tag lists are shorter 
Nov 27 18:45:21 <paolo>	Gnils: the HTML - tag list should be really split in 3-4 tag lists
Nov 27 18:46:16 <paolo>	even if is not documented a user can add its own taglist writing a simple xml file
Nov 27 18:46:56 <paolo>	and putting it in a ~/.gedit-2/plugins/taglist dir (IIRC)
Nov 27 18:48:12 <paolo>	I have to go now.
Nov 27 18:48:21 <huey_>	me2
Nov 27 18:48:27 <paolo>	cal_LAP: could you please send me the log?
Nov 27 18:48:41 <cal_LAP>	sure
Nov 27 18:48:47 <paolo>	bye and thanks for the great help!
Nov 27 18:49:39 <--	paolo has quit (Client Exiting)
Nov 27 18:49:55 ---	huey_ is now known as huey_away
Nov 27 18:52:34 <cal_LAP>	are we carrying on or calling it a day, then...?
Nov 27 18:53:58 <Eimi>	I've got nothing better to do today
Nov 27 18:57:24 <cal_LAP>	ok, from the top then...
Nov 27 18:57:33 <cal_LAP>	next dialog is http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/encoding-management.png
Nov 27 18:58:07 <cal_LAP>	hmm, I guess that's part of the prefs dialog really, do we want to do that yet? :)
Nov 27 18:59:03 <Eimi>	hehe
Nov 27 18:59:34 <Eimi>	I don't know that we're quite up for that
Nov 27 18:59:40 <Eimi>	we could do it, though
Nov 27 18:59:50 <cal_LAP>	let's see if there's any non-prefs dialogs left then...
Nov 27 19:00:14 <cal_LAP>	we didn't do http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/shell-ouput.png, did we?
Nov 27 19:00:27 <Eimi>	no, we didn't
Nov 27 19:00:48 <cal_LAP>	ok, so... the dialog title should match the menu item...
Nov 27 19:01:05 <cal_LAP>	which I think we said was going to be 'Run Command'...?
Nov 27 19:01:25 <Eimi>	yeah
Nov 27 19:01:36 <cal_LAP>	so, s/Shell output/Run Command
Nov 27 19:01:36 <Eimi>	finger's bad for l10n
Nov 27 19:01:52 <cal_LAP>	yep, it's the stock 'run' icon though I think :/
Nov 27 19:02:07 <cal_LAP>	as opposed to the stock 'execute' icon, don't ask me why we have both...
Nov 27 19:02:20 <cal_LAP>	(or vice versa)
Nov 27 19:02:27 <Eimi>	sigh
Nov 27 19:02:36 <cal_LAP>	the icon + help text doesn't really add anything anyway, just remove ie.
Nov 27 19:02:40 <cal_LAP>	s/ie/it :)
Nov 27 19:02:49 <Eimi>	I'd rather remove ie :-P
Nov 27 19:03:01 <cal_LAP>	heh
Nov 27 19:03:06 <Eimi>	is there a reason this dialog is so different from the standard Run Application thingie?
Nov 27 19:03:16 <cal_LAP>	good question... 
Nov 27 19:03:34 <cal_LAP>	I guess because the Run app dialog is for running apps, whereas this one is really only for running shell commands
Nov 27 19:03:48 <cal_LAP>	but maybe that's not a good enough reason...
Nov 27 19:04:43 <Eimi>	Frankly I'm of the opinion that most of the plugins are worthless anyway, this among them.  Duplicates functionality....anyway
Nov 27 19:05:14 <cal_LAP>	s/Capture the command output/Show results in Output Window, or something...?
Nov 27 19:05:25 <cal_LAP>	to make it clear where the results are going...
Nov 27 19:05:26 <Eimi>	Is that what that option does?
Nov 27 19:05:39 <cal_LAP>	dunno, let me check :)
Nov 27 19:05:54 <cal_LAP>	yep, it is
Nov 27 19:06:18 <Eimi>	What is the purpose of this with that turned off?
Nov 27 19:07:08 <cal_LAP>	not a lot I suspect, unless you don't want spurious messages to clutter up your output window if you're running an app that opens in another window or something...
Nov 27 19:07:20 <cal_LAP>	butI agree it doesn't seem overly useful
Nov 27 19:07:53 <Eimi>	Why would you run that from gEdit, though?
Nov 27 19:08:15 <cal_LAP>	well, exactly :)
Nov 27 19:08:17 <Eimi>	I guess I'm trying to get a handle on why this exists in the first place
Nov 27 19:08:47 <Eimi>	and all I can think of is the %N from before, which is very nonobvious
Nov 27 19:08:51 ---	auspexAFC is now known as auspex
Nov 27 19:09:26 <cal_LAP>	right, that would be the main use for it I guess, and I agree there should be a more obvious way of specifying it...
Nov 27 19:09:31 <auspex>	Has anyone looked at the applets?  (seems 2 days on just gedit now)
Nov 27 19:09:46 <cal_LAP>	nope, not yet... feel free to do your own review and post the results :)
Nov 27 19:10:21 *	cal_LAP can't believe Gman thought we'd do the whole desktop in 5 hours...
Nov 27 19:10:47 <auspex>	I can see it now. "Applet Foo:  This shouldn't exist. Remove it."
Nov 27 19:11:05 <cal_LAP>	heh
Nov 27 19:12:02 <cal_LAP>	the Actions->Run Program dialog has an "Append File" button, perhaps we need something similar here to "Insert current file" or something...?
Nov 27 19:12:20 <Eimi>	could be beneficial
Nov 27 19:12:40 <cal_LAP>	although all it would do would be type '%N' for you, which seems a bit like overkill :)
Nov 27 19:14:09 <Eimi>	hehe
Nov 27 19:16:36 <cal_LAP>	any other suggestions for this one?
Nov 27 19:16:50 <Eimi>	don't think so
Nov 27 19:16:54 <auspex>	yes
Nov 27 19:17:21 <cal_LAP>	apart from "This shouldn't exist. Remove it." :)
Nov 27 19:17:26 <auspex>	Turning the Known Applications triangle shouldn't erase what you've typed.
Nov 27 19:17:50 <cal_LAP>	no, it shouldn't, but that's a different dialog :)
Nov 27 19:17:58 <auspex>	eh
Nov 27 19:17:59 <auspex>	oh
Nov 27 19:18:07 <cal_LAP>	actually, it doesn't do that in my build anyway...
Nov 27 19:19:59 <auspex>	Let's go to the other Run Program... dialog then. :-)
Nov 27 19:20:10 <cal_LAP>	heh, I think we did that last week :)
Nov 27 19:20:28 <auspex>	This is what I get for not having had a coffee yet.
Nov 27 19:22:00 <auspex>	Was it noted that it is "Run Program...", but there's a "Known Applications" triangle here and an Applications menu elsewhere?
Nov 27 19:22:29 <Eimi>	It's now Run Application
Nov 27 19:23:27 <auspex>	ok.  :-(
Nov 27 19:25:48 *	auspex goes for coffee and tries to forget that one word is twice as many syllables as the other and half as common in other UI.
Nov 27 19:27:26 <cal_LAP>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/word-count-dialog.png
Nov 27 19:27:55 <Eimi>	seems to me the button order is wrong
Nov 27 19:28:08 <Eimi>	See no reason for the frame
Nov 27 19:28:11 <cal_LAP>	hmm, another case where the HIG isn't too clear
Nov 27 19:28:18 <Eimi>	and I wonder, could this be a stripy list?
Nov 27 19:28:40 <cal_LAP>	could be, although then I guess you'd be able to select things in it which is a bit pointless
Nov 27 19:29:12 <Eimi>	yeah...just seemed like it'd be easier to read across
Nov 27 19:29:32 <Eimi>	but probably pointless
Nov 27 19:29:42 <cal_LAP>	maybe if "with spaces" and "without spaces" were moved to after the respective numbers it would be easier to read
Nov 27 19:29:55 <cal_LAP>	because all the labels would be closer to the numbers then
Nov 27 19:30:20 <Eimi>	I imagine that being a bit awkward
Nov 27 19:30:43 <Eimi>	How does this treat newlines?  Are they "spaces"?
Nov 27 19:30:47 <auspex>	yes
Nov 27 19:31:15 <auspex>	You can tell because the byte count and char+space count match
Nov 27 19:31:33 <Eimi>	So?  Newlines might be nonspace characters, too
Nov 27 19:31:46 <Eimi>	(albeit nonintuitively)
Nov 27 19:32:18 <auspex>	heh. I was thinking of them for inclusive rulings. ooops. :-)
Nov 27 19:32:27 *	auspex now actually drinks the coffee.
Nov 27 19:33:39 <cal_LAP>	would be nice if it just updated during idle cycles, rather than having to push a button...
Nov 27 19:35:47 <Eimi>	then you wouldn't know when it was up to date, though
Nov 27 19:36:23 <cal_LAP>	true, although it could show some sort of 'busy indiicator, or even just update the numbers continuously while counting rather than waiting until it had finsihed
Nov 27 19:36:41 <cal_LAP>	do more people want to know how many words or lines are in their document, I wonder...?
Nov 27 19:37:15 <Eimi>	I don't know.  I'm used to seeing Lines first because of wc
Nov 27 19:37:25 <auspex>	Only poor students or students with poor teachers.
Nov 27 19:37:39 <cal_LAP>	or journalists :)
Nov 27 19:37:48 <Eimi>	and it makes the numbers go up up up
Nov 27 19:37:56 <Eimi>	except the with and without spaces
Nov 27 19:37:58 <auspex>	cal_LAP: There's a difference?  :-D
Nov 27 19:37:59 *	auspex runs
Nov 27 19:38:16 <cal_LAP>	heh
Nov 27 19:38:57 <Eimi>	I've never felt the desire to know how many nonspace characters there were in my text
Nov 27 19:40:14 <cal_LAP>	did we look at this one?  http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/open-location.png
Nov 27 19:40:31 <Eimi>	in passing yesterday, but I don't think in detail
Nov 27 19:41:08 <cal_LAP>	hmm ok... well, the menu item is "Open Location...", so...
Nov 27 19:42:23 <Eimi>	I just realized a lot of these dialogs don't have help
Nov 27 19:42:29 <cal_LAP>	the docs team have sanctioned "URL" for use in the GUI, I wonder what they'd think about "URI"...?
Nov 27 19:42:51 <Eimi>	what is the difference between URL and URI?
Nov 27 19:43:48 <cal_LAP>	a URI identifies a resource and a URL locates it :)
Nov 27 19:44:32 <Eimi>	I'd just make it "Enter the URL of the file you would like to open:" or maybe just "URL:"
Nov 27 19:44:32 <cal_LAP>	http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:dKo_lksLyhkC:ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/http/hypermail/1995q3/0799.html+difference+URI+URL&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8
Nov 27 19:46:26 <Eimi>	I would expect that this only accepts a URL, then
Nov 27 19:47:41 <cal_LAP>	quite possibly...
Nov 27 19:48:22 <Eimi>	Actually, I'd be inclined to remove the word "Location" and make the menu item "Open URL..."
Nov 27 19:49:25 <cal_LAP>	I think it uses "Location" to be consistent with nautilus
Nov 27 19:49:56 <auspex>	and web browsers
Nov 27 19:50:29 <Eimi>	ok
Nov 27 19:51:08 <cal_LAP>	I think that only leaves the prefs dialog then, but conveniently I have to go home :)
Nov 27 19:51:25 <Eimi>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/language-dialog.png
Nov 27 19:51:37 <Eimi>	goodnight, then!
Nov 27 19:52:09 <cal_LAP>	goodnight... remember to send the log of anything else you do to paolo :)
Nov 27 19:52:25 ---	You have left channel #ui-review
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Nov 27 19:52:25 2002

