
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Nov 26 15:49:53 2002

Nov 26 15:49:53 -->	You are now talking on #ui-review
Nov 26 15:52:59 -->	huey_ (reinout@sloep110.cs.vu.nl) has joined #ui-review
Nov 26 16:01:40 <cal_LAP>	not sure Gman will be along today, he skived^H^H^H^Hleft early with a headache :)
Nov 26 16:01:43 -->	paolo_ (~paolo@213.213.114.219) has joined #ui-review
Nov 26 16:02:54 <auspex>	cal_LAP: What is to be done about the recommended grouping style given that it breaks the toolkit? :-)
Nov 26 16:03:24 <auspex>	(not exactly breaks, more abuses)
Nov 26 16:03:45 <cal_LAP>	auspex: show me some options that don't and I'll tell you which one looks prettiest :)
Nov 26 16:04:13 <auspex>	cal_LAP: Read  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96374 ?
Nov 26 16:04:43 <auspex>	My last comment there.
Nov 26 16:05:03 *	auspex sets about making a glade demo to make a screenshot
Nov 26 16:05:12 <cal_LAP>	auspex: I glanced at it, haven't had a chance to read it in any detail yet though :/
Nov 26 16:05:31 <cal_LAP>	it's in my ever-growing "HIG TODO" folder :/
Nov 26 16:06:03 <auspex>	I've been feeding that folder. :-)
Nov 26 16:06:10 <cal_LAP>	tell me about it :0
Nov 26 16:08:24 ---	paolo_ is now known as paolo
Nov 26 16:09:10 <cal_LAP>	shall we get stuck in then?  I heard we were doing gedit today...
Nov 26 16:09:41 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep, we were douing it
Nov 26 16:13:15 <cal_LAP>	let's do some more then :)  anyone got screenshots...?
Nov 26 16:14:53 <paolo>	www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots
Nov 26 16:16:12 <paolo>	We can start with http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/file-menu.png
Nov 26 16:16:38 <cal_LAP>	ok...
Nov 26 16:17:19 <paolo>	IN the screenshots all the plugins are activated
Nov 26 16:17:23 <cal_LAP>	first thing that hits me is the icons in the recently-used-file list... are they necessary?  they just add clutter IMHO...
Nov 26 16:18:00 -->	irene (irene@p56-145.as1.sla.galway.eircom.net) has joined #ui-review
Nov 26 16:18:10 *	huey_ wakes up
Nov 26 16:18:17 <paolo>	hmm... a part from the fact that they are wrong in this screenshot
Nov 26 16:18:22 <--	irene has quit ()
Nov 26 16:18:42 <paolo>	I think they can help you in understanding the mime type of the document
Nov 26 16:18:57 <cal_LAP>	does it matter?  if you can't open it in gedit it shouldn't be there :)
Nov 26 16:19:18 <huey_>	paolo: then what does a magnifying glass have to do with a textfile?
Nov 26 16:19:50 <paolo>	huey_: as I have just said icons are wrong in this screenshot due to a configuration problem
Nov 26 16:19:54 <cal_LAP>	irene: btw we're looking at http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/file-menu.png
Nov 26 16:19:59 <huey_>	oh, ok
Nov 26 16:20:40 <huey_>	'What does 'Open location' do? (is it for opening URI's?)
Nov 26 16:20:47 <paolo>	yep
Nov 26 16:21:06 <paolo>	it will disappear when we will have a gnome-vfs enabled file selector
Nov 26 16:21:19 <huey_>	do you have a screenshot of the uri dialog then?
Nov 26 16:21:21 <cal_LAP>	Could Open Location have shortcut Ctrl-L for consistency with Nautilus, say? Or is it used for something else?
Nov 26 16:22:12 <paolo>	huey_: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/open-location.png
Nov 26 16:22:47 <huey_>	paolo: does Alt+l focus the textfield?
Nov 26 16:22:49 <paolo>	cal_LAP: yep, it can
Nov 26 16:23:06 <paolo>	huey_: yes
Nov 26 16:23:30 <huey_>	the dropdown shows previous locations right?
Nov 26 16:23:38 <Eimi>	That title is different from the menu text that opens it
Nov 26 16:23:49 <Eimi>	Open from URI instead of Open Location
Nov 26 16:24:25 <paolo>	huey_: yes
Nov 26 16:24:43 <paolo>	Eimi: yep, good catch :-)
Nov 26 16:24:55 <huey_>	paolo: what protocols does it handle and how does gedit react in case of network problems, 404, etc.?
Nov 26 16:25:20 <paolo>	huey_: it uses gnome-vfs so it handles all the protocols it can
Nov 26 16:25:38 <huey_>	ok, I see
Nov 26 16:26:09 <huey_>	What does 'Compare Files...' do exactly?
Nov 26 16:26:56 <paolo>	it runs diff to compares two files
Nov 26 16:27:17 <paolo>	huey_: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/compare.png
Nov 26 16:27:37 <paolo>	huey_: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/output_window.png
Nov 26 16:28:02 <huey_>	nifty
Nov 26 16:29:54 <huey_>	can gedit highlight where two files differ and show it in some kind of two-pane view? 
Nov 26 16:30:13 <huey_>	to be honest I don't think raw diff output is very useful
Nov 26 16:30:23 <paolo>	huey_: no
Nov 26 16:31:04 <huey_>	paolo: compare http://www.jedit.org/index.php?page=screenshot&image=7
Nov 26 16:32:04 <huey_>	Eimi, cal_LAP, you still there?
Nov 26 16:32:13 <auspex>	EOG says: Could not open `http://www.jedit.org/index.php?page=screenshot&image=7'
Nov 26 16:32:14 <cal_LAP>	huey_: yeah, sorry, doing three things at once :)
Nov 26 16:32:27 <paolo>	huey_: jEdit is a full featured code editor
Nov 26 16:32:47 <paolo>	gedit is not. There are other gnome utils to make this kind of stuff
Nov 26 16:32:50 <huey_>	paolo: yes I know, but to illustrate the idea
Nov 26 16:32:57 <cal_LAP>	wonder if diffmk could be adapted to do that, that's what we use for the marked-up HIG...
Nov 26 16:33:00 <Eimi>	mostly here
Nov 26 16:33:02 <auspex>	paolo: Menu item and dialog title don't match. :-)
Nov 26 16:33:05 <paolo>	huey_: yep
Nov 26 16:33:22 <paolo>	auspex: where?
Nov 26 16:33:26 <huey_>	paolo: it's just that I think that raw diff output is not very informative
Nov 26 16:33:28 <auspex>	paolo: compare
Nov 26 16:33:37 <paolo>	auspex: ok
Nov 26 16:33:52 <huey_>	in fact I doubt that comparing files in gedit's "core business" ;-)
Nov 26 16:33:56 <huey_>	s/in/is
Nov 26 16:34:22 <paolo>	huey_: yep, if fact "Compare" is a plugin (you active this feature only if you need and like it)
Nov 26 16:34:32 <Eimi>	If all it does it run the diff command, then yeah, it doesn't belong.  It should either do something much fancier, or not do it at all.
Nov 26 16:35:10 <auspex>	paolo: I'd remove the icon from "Open Location..."  It looks just like the one above it.
Nov 26 16:35:59 <paolo>	auspex: yep
Nov 26 16:36:10 *	cal_LAP switches to an accessibility theme to see if it breaks anything :)
Nov 26 16:37:03 -->	irene (irene@p56-145.as1.sla.galway.eircom.net) has joined #ui-review
Nov 26 16:39:16 <irene>	Hi, have we started yet?
Nov 26 16:39:21 <Eimi>	What does "Open CVS Changelogs" do, and when is it enabled?
Nov 26 16:39:31 <huey_>	a few more points about compare.png: 1) are the 'documents' the currently open documents? if so make it clearer. 2) the parentheses about the -u and -b option are unnecessary imho, 3) (far fetched) this window doesn't allow URI's to be compared. I'd say take the currently focused document as first and some other as second.
Nov 26 16:39:36 <Eimi>	irene: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/file-menu.png
Nov 26 16:40:10 <paolo>	huey_: note that -u is not supported by the Sun's diff
Nov 26 16:40:24 <auspex>	paolo: On the Compare dialog: Since this is not meant to be a "fully featured code editor", hide away the Unixisms. Under the Tools menu you can might provide a Customize item to change both the tools visible and how they work.
Nov 26 16:41:43 <auspex>	hmm.  Shouldn't Compare Files... be under the Tools menu?
Nov 26 16:41:47 <paolo>	auspex: could you repeat the 2nd part of your comment?
Nov 26 16:42:08 <paolo>	auspex: it works on files (but we can move it)
Nov 26 16:42:38 ---	You are now known as calum
Nov 26 16:44:26 <huey_>	paolo: it works on files yes, but all other options in the file menu work on the currently focused file
Nov 26 16:44:58 <auspex>	paolo: I don't have a recent version of gedit here. Without seeing what's on the Tools menu now, I'd think it the right place for Compare...
Nov 26 16:45:07 <paolo>	huey_: yep
Nov 26 16:45:22 <paolo>	auspex: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/tools-menu.png
Nov 26 16:45:53 <paolo>	ok. I will move Compare to Tools
Nov 26 16:46:27 <huey_>	might as well move Sort too
Nov 26 16:47:01 <paolo>	huey_:: "Sort" works on the current focused file
Nov 26 16:47:15 <auspex>	What does Sort... do?  (other than show a dialog entitled "Sort..." ;-)
Nov 26 16:47:40 <paolo>	hehe... it sorts current document or selected text
Nov 26 16:48:13 <auspex>	paolo: ah, an Edit-ing command?  ;-)
Nov 26 16:48:22 <calum>	yeah, just what I was going to say :)
Nov 26 16:48:49 <auspex>	calum: Even down to the cheesy way I said it?  Weirdo.
Nov 26 16:48:57 <calum>	heh, no, not quite :)
Nov 26 16:49:05 <paolo>	hmm... good idea
Nov 26 16:49:37 <paolo>	Sort dialog -> http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/sort.png
Nov 26 16:49:47 <huey_>	paolo: something totally different but I was wondering if gedit accepts dropped files in the textarea yet
Nov 26 16:50:16 <paolo>	Yes, now it accepts them (it didn't in gnome 2.0 due to a bug)
Nov 26 16:50:22 <huey_>	ok, great
Nov 26 16:50:41 <paolo>	An updated main window -> http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/main-window.png
Nov 26 16:50:52 <calum>	(is it just me, or does anyone else always look for plugins manager on the Tools menu rather than in Preferences...?)
Nov 26 16:51:20 <auspex>	calum: me too.  I think I may have even filed a bug report for that once.
Nov 26 16:51:41 <Eimi>	What's it look like with priority text?
Nov 26 16:51:48 <paolo>	calum: I think the list of plugins you want to use is really a preference
Nov 26 16:51:54 <calum>	and why when I click on a checkbox in the "Load Plugin" list does the list scroll unpredictably... :/
Nov 26 16:51:59 <paolo>	I don't see why it should be managed by a Tool
Nov 26 16:52:16 <paolo>	calum: it should be a bug (please, file a bug report)
Nov 26 16:52:34 <calum>	might be a treeview bug actually, I'll have to play with it and see
Nov 26 16:52:40 *	auspex . o O ( Stay on target! Stay on Tarrrrrrrgggghhhhh! )
Nov 26 16:52:55 <auspex>	paolo: The Sort window is meant for multiple use?
Nov 26 16:53:16 <calum>	Eimi: only Open, Save and Undo have priority text
Nov 26 16:53:24 <calum>	Eimi: which looks a little odd, because "New" doesn't :/
Nov 26 16:53:32 <paolo>	auspex: no
Nov 26 16:53:51 <auspex>	paolo: ok. then  s/Sort/Sort.../  s/Close/Cancel/
Nov 26 16:54:06 <auspex>	(first one in the title)
Nov 26 16:54:12 <paolo>	calum: we disussed it on bugzilla
Nov 26 16:54:28 <calum>	paolo: which, the priority text?
Nov 26 16:54:36 <paolo>	calum: yep
Nov 26 16:54:49 <huey_>	sort.png: why is 'sort order' so bold?
Nov 26 16:55:00 <calum>	paolo: yeah, I remember the bug, don't think I contributed though :)
Nov 26 16:55:30 <irene>	s/Sort Order/Sort order: ? Also agree it shouldn't be bold. 
Nov 26 16:55:34 <paolo>	huey_: what do you mean with "so bold"? It is bold
Nov 26 16:55:36 <calum>	huey_: I guess that's just the new HIG style for headers, looks slightly odd when there are no others in the dialog though
Nov 26 16:55:42 <huey_>	sort.png: why isn't the sort operation undo-able and why is it in a different font
Nov 26 16:55:48 <paolo>	it should be bold according to HIG
Nov 26 16:55:53 <huey_>	ok ok
Nov 26 16:56:15 <irene>	paolo: ok
Nov 26 16:56:27 <huey_>	but like calum says there are no other headers. perhaps add a second header for the lower options?
Nov 26 16:56:36 <paolo>	huey_: if you sort a big file the undo info you have to store are too big
Nov 26 16:57:27 <huey_>	wouldn't it make more sense to only pop up a warning when the file is too big?
Nov 26 16:57:30 <paolo>	A second header for what? Any suggestion?
Nov 26 16:57:59 <paolo>	huey_: I prefer to have a consistend behavior
Nov 26 16:58:29 <huey_>	header suggestion: 'Sort options'
Nov 26 16:58:57 <paolo>	hmmm... "Sort order" is a sort options too.
Nov 26 16:59:47 <huey_>	paolo: more like a Sort Type (or am I talking nonsense here)
Nov 26 16:59:57 <auspex>	s/<b>Sort Order<\/b>\n\t( ) Ascending\n\t( ) Descending/Order: ( ) Ascending  ( ) Descending/
Nov 26 17:00:10 <auspex>	How's that for obfuscation?
Nov 26 17:00:35 <paolo>	auspex: great suggestion... but I have not undestand it :-)
Nov 26 17:00:59 <calum>	I assume "RO" in the document tab means it's read only?  not sure I like that :/
Nov 26 17:01:06 <auspex>	Translation:  Remove the header.  Make one line labelled "Order:" with two radio buttons, Ascending and Descending.
Nov 26 17:01:15 <paolo>	calum: yep it mean Read Only
Nov 26 17:01:30 <calum>	paolo: if nothing else I think it should go after the filename, rather than before
Nov 26 17:02:19 <irene>	Sort dialog - change the warning text to "You cannot undo a sort operation."
Nov 26 17:02:22 <paolo>	calum: dunno, I will try
Nov 26 17:02:48 <paolo>	irene: ok
Nov 26 17:03:16 <calum>	paolo: just to make it easier to read in the window list, for example
Nov 26 17:03:55 <paolo>	calum: yep, I see yout point
Nov 26 17:03:57 <calum>	ah, you can't even edit a read-only document, and then save it under a different name...?
Nov 26 17:04:24 <paolo>	calum: you can save it with a different name and then edit it
Nov 26 17:04:37 <calum>	oh, okay... that seems the wrong way around to me :)
Nov 26 17:04:53 <paolo>	I found it more intuitive
Nov 26 17:05:25 <calum>	well, It's not how most other editors work, I guess it might confuse some people :/
Nov 26 17:05:36 <calum>	who are coming from lesser desktops :)
Nov 26 17:05:47 <paolo>	actually I fould the way other editor works very confusing
Nov 26 17:06:09 <paolo>	for example I hate this behvior in vi
Nov 26 17:06:57 <calum>	but at least the other way it doesn't matter which way around you do things... you have the choice of edit then save, or save then edit...
Nov 26 17:07:12 <calum>	this way you have to know to save first, then edit
Nov 26 17:07:53 <paolo>	ok
Nov 26 17:08:03 <irene>	Does gedit give you a msg box to tell you that you need to save the file first under a new filename?
Nov 26 17:08:07 <calum>	anyway, we're digressing from the screenshots, sorry :)
Nov 26 17:08:17 <paolo>	np
Nov 26 17:08:20 <paolo>	irene: no
Nov 26 17:09:28 <paolo>	ok, I will implemet the calum's suggestion (but not for 2.2)
Nov 26 17:09:53 <calum>	well, we should see if anyone else agrees first, I guess :)
Nov 26 17:10:24 <paolo>	next shot: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/main-window.png
Nov 26 17:11:56 <irene>	Can I go back to sort.png for a minute?
Nov 26 17:12:02 <auspex>	eep. I'm still on sort.png too.
Nov 26 17:12:18 <paolo>	ok
Nov 26 17:12:36 <auspex>	The icon in the sort button shouldn't be there. It means an ascending sort.
Nov 26 17:13:13 <irene>	Should "Start ordering at column" be "Start ordering at row"?
Nov 26 17:13:45 <irene>	Or, sorry s/row/line
Nov 26 17:14:29 <paolo>	irene: no, it is column
Nov 26 17:15:54 <huey_>	auspex: I'd agree with you but for a different reason: it only has meaning in context of a Latin alphabet
Nov 26 17:16:38 <irene>	paolo: ok
Nov 26 17:19:14 <paolo>	can we go on?
Nov 26 17:19:24 <auspex>	I'm making a glade mockup.
Nov 26 17:19:37 <paolo>	calum: are you logging?
Nov 26 17:19:50 <calum>	should be, let me check...
Nov 26 17:20:28 <calum>	yep
Nov 26 17:20:44 <irene>	Actually, one more thing.... wouldn't it be better if the Warning text is displayed when you click Sort instead of being on the dialog?
Nov 26 17:21:09 <paolo>	irene: dunno, I think it would be a bit annoying
Nov 26 17:21:27 <calum>	yeah, would probably need a "don't show me this again" checkbox and we don't like those :)
Nov 26 17:22:11 <irene>	Fair enough, leave the warning text where it is.
Nov 26 17:22:44 <auspex>	http://www.phys.lsu.edu/students/merchan/shots/sort-dialog.png
Nov 26 17:22:44 <huey_>	main window: does gedit still show a tab when only one file is opened?
Nov 26 17:22:52 <paolo>	huey_: yep
Nov 26 17:23:24 <huey_>	paolo: I think a tab is superfluous in that case
Nov 26 17:24:42 <irene>	auspex: s/Sort.../Sort in the dialog title
Nov 26 17:24:44 <paolo>	huey_: yes, it is superfluos, but I think switching between having tabs and not having them is ugly
Nov 26 17:25:07 <auspex>	irene: Is it not supposed to match the menu item?
Nov 26 17:25:07 <huey_>	paolo: obvious solution: get rid of all tabs 8-)
Nov 26 17:25:41 <paolo>	and then?
Nov 26 17:25:52 <huey_>	paolo: use multiple views and/or the Documents menu
Nov 26 17:26:08 <paolo>	too slow and annoying!
Nov 26 17:26:55 <huey_>	paolo: more space for the textarea and the shortcut keys could stay. not slow at all.
Nov 26 17:27:07 <irene>	auspex: No, I think the ellipsis on the menu item indicates that a dialog follows so the ellipsis in the titlebar doesn't have a meaning.
Nov 26 17:27:34 <paolo>	Shotcut keys? How should they work in this case?
Nov 26 17:28:06 <paolo>	other comments on the main window?
Nov 26 17:28:23 <huey_>	Ctrl+PgUp and Ctrl+PgDn (or whatever is standard for that kind of operations) for switching between documents
Nov 26 17:28:36 <paolo>	Also about the main window you can give a look at http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/tab-context-menu.png
Nov 26 17:29:02 <paolo>	huey_: if you have more than 2 document using Ctrl+PgUp/Down is very annoyng
Nov 26 17:29:08 <calum>	paolo: can you get at that menu from the keyboard?
Nov 26 17:29:55 *	calum wonders whether that menu needs to be any different from the one you get if you right-click in the document
Nov 26 17:30:05 <paolo>	calum: hmm... probably not but you have all the options in normal menus
Nov 26 17:30:27 <huey_>	paolo: why? 
Nov 26 17:30:32 <auspex>	irene: I concede. :-)
Nov 26 17:30:44 <calum>	hmm, okay... would be good if you could just focus the tab and press Shift+F10
Nov 26 17:31:00 <paolo>	A part from the fist item. But this is due to the fact I don't know where to put it
Nov 26 17:31:22 <irene>	Menu items should use header capitalization, ie. Move to a New Window or I think "Move to New Window" is better.
Nov 26 17:32:03 <paolo>	calum: yep, but it is not easy to implement
Nov 26 17:32:06 <paolo>	irene: ok
Nov 26 17:32:17 <auspex>	Updated: http://www.phys.lsu.edu/students/merchan/shots/sort-dialog.png
Nov 26 17:32:18 <calum>	paolo: probably needs to be fixed in GtkNotebook so it "just works"
Nov 26 17:32:53 <paolo>	calum: hmm... I'm doing weird things with GtkNotebook
Nov 26 17:33:18 <calum>	well don't, or I'll send Bill round :)
Nov 26 17:33:48 <huey_>	auspex: looks good. though I wonder what happens if you enter a value like 10.000
Nov 26 17:34:04 <paolo>	calum: hehe... only for displaying the icon, the close button and the tooltips
Nov 26 17:34:55 <paolo>	auspex: good idea. Please, file a bug report with the screenshot
Nov 26 17:35:59 <huey_>	paolo: please see http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/draft_hig/windows.html#mdi as well
Nov 26 17:38:44 <paolo>	huey_: I totally disagree on it. Tabbed MDI rocks for this kind of apps
Nov 26 17:38:44 <huey_>	it's not something terribly important though, and many people seem to like tabs
Nov 26 17:39:35 -->	BredaMc (Breda@159.134.57.145) has joined #ui-review
Nov 26 17:39:41 <paolo>	I would like to put "Move to New Window" in a normal menu but I don't know where. Any idea?
Nov 26 17:40:16 <paolo>	Should I put it in the View menu or in the Documents one?
Nov 26 17:40:17 <calum>	Documents menu probably.... if you must :)
Nov 26 17:41:04 <paolo>	calum: do you think I should not?
Nov 26 17:41:30 <calum>	paolo: only when I'm wearing my anti-MDI hat :)
Nov 26 17:41:38 <paolo>	hehe
Nov 26 17:42:12 <calum>	(btw, not to sound like a broken record, but the HIG has no particular objection to documents appearing in tabs in the same window, we'd just like the window manager to take care of it rather than each app... but we know that's not going to happen for a while)
Nov 26 17:42:40 <paolo>	I don't see why you all hate MDI. I prefer to have one window with 10 documents then 10 windows with one document
Nov 26 17:43:19 <calum>	right, but a good window manager should let you do that :)
Nov 26 17:43:30 <Eimi>	Tabbed MDI is the worst interface, except for all the others.  Someday there will be something really good that solves all the issues.  Until then, there's no really good recommendation
Nov 26 17:43:52 <auspex>	I think that if you have something like an IDE, where the main object is a project not a file, then showing files in tabs is OK.
Nov 26 17:44:02 <paolo>	in the future I will be able to fly :-)
Nov 26 17:44:32 <paolo>	ok, guys thanks for the help. I have to go now.
Nov 26 17:44:56 <paolo>	calum: could you please send me the logs when you will have finished?
Nov 26 17:45:13 <calum>	paolo: sure
Nov 26 17:45:21 <paolo>	calum: thanks
Nov 26 17:45:22 <paolo>	bye
Nov 26 17:45:25 <--	paolo has quit (Client Exiting)
Nov 26 17:45:50 *	huey_ looks at the View and Document menu shot and thinks we're not finished yet
Nov 26 17:48:38 <--	BredaMc (Breda@159.134.57.145) has left #ui-review
Nov 26 17:49:02 <huey_>	Gman sent this todo list this morning: o applets [specifically the preference dialogs]                                 o terminal                                                                      o utilities [character map, search tool, dictionary, system log]                o eog                                                                           o procman                                                              
Nov 26 17:49:02 <huey_>	        
Nov 26 17:51:43 <irene>	Will we continue with gedit, start something else from Gman's list, or finish for today? 
Nov 26 17:52:00 *	auspex votes for Gman's list.
Nov 26 17:52:07 <irene>	I can stay on for about another 15 mins.
Nov 26 17:52:46 <huey_>	I need to go, sorry
Nov 26 17:52:57 ---	huey_ is now known as huey_away
Nov 26 17:53:49 <irene>	huey: ok, bye.
Nov 26 17:53:52 <calum>	I vote for either finishing gedit or doing eog...
Nov 26 17:54:20 <irene>	OK, how about continuing with gedit then...
Nov 26 17:55:48 <Eimi>	Sounds wise
Nov 26 17:55:53 <auspex>	brb. need more coffee
Nov 26 17:56:06 <irene>	Will we move on? Are we finished main-window.png?
Nov 26 17:56:09 <Eimi>	easier to keep status if you do one at a time
Nov 26 17:56:17 <calum>	I think we're done on the main window, yes
Nov 26 17:56:59 <irene>	edit-menu.png next?
Nov 26 17:57:05 <calum>	yep: http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/edit-menu.png
Nov 26 17:57:20 <Eimi>	Did anyone mention all the bevels around the status bar parts on the main window?  Might be a bit less visually cluttered flatter.  But shouldn't matter much
Nov 26 17:57:37 *	Eimi has been semihere
Nov 26 17:57:49 <calum>	well, it's in the log now :)
Nov 26 17:59:02 <Eimi>	What's the purpose of "Insert User Name"?
Nov 26 17:59:04 <calum>	how useful is "insert user name"?  I'm quite capable of typing my own name :)
Nov 26 17:59:09 <calum>	snap :)
Nov 26 17:59:47 <calum>	not sure where it gets the name from, it's not my login name...
Nov 26 18:00:38 <irene>	Are you sure? I think it is your username as in login name.
Nov 26 18:00:44 <calum>	oh, it's the name that finger uses, wherever that's stored
Nov 26 18:00:50 <calum>	yes, I'm sure, just tried it :)
Nov 26 18:01:02 <calum>	it's your real name it inserts
Nov 26 18:01:08 <Eimi>	GECOS or whatever
Nov 26 18:01:41 <calum>	anyway, it's only a plugin, so at least it doesn't appear by default :)
Nov 26 18:02:15 <calum>	Insert Date/Time should have ellipsis...
Nov 26 18:02:36 <calum>	and Preferences shouldn't :)
Nov 26 18:03:09 <calum>	the Indent and Unindent icons don't theme correctly, either
Nov 26 18:03:12 <Eimi>	are Indent and Unindent plugins too?
Nov 26 18:03:14 <irene>	Why should Insert Date/Time have ellipsis? Does it display a dialog now? 
Nov 26 18:03:19 <calum>	yes, it does
Nov 26 18:03:31 <calum>	yes, indent + unindent are plugins
Nov 26 18:03:36 <Eimi>	ok, good
Nov 26 18:04:10 <calum>	the  icon on the Insert button in the date/time dialog doesn't theme either
Nov 26 18:04:18 <irene>	calum: What is the ellipsis rule again? I thought it is displayed on menu item or button that opens a dialog?
Nov 26 18:04:58 <calum>	irene: only ones where further input is required to complete the task... which (according to common usage) Preferences doesn't, you could just be checking your settings
Nov 26 18:05:22 <calum>	a bit contrived, but that's our current rule anyway (and Windoze's, and Motif's...)
Nov 26 18:05:52 <irene>	calum: That doesn't seem right. 
Nov 26 18:05:55 <auspex>	I have a more confusing summary. :-)
Nov 26 18:06:11 <calum>	go for it :)
Nov 26 18:07:56 <auspex>	If the item will always open what should be a dialog, then it will have an ellipsis. If not always (e.g., confirmation alerts), then no ellipsis. If what should not be a dialog (e.g., a preference panel, property panel, property inspector, utility window), then no ellipsis.
Nov 26 18:08:46 <calum>	okay, so now define "dialog" for irene and the rest of us :)
Nov 26 18:09:01 <auspex>	Same definition Microsoft uses.
Nov 26 18:09:17 <auspex>	Same I've always used.
Nov 26 18:09:28 <calum>	I don't think the HIG tries to define it at all though :/
Nov 26 18:09:49 <irene>	auspex: Doesn't Preferences... always open a dialog though, therefore it should take the ellipsis?
Nov 26 18:10:33 <auspex>	irene: It's not supposed to. A dialog would only appear from there if the programmer is lazy and requires the user to click OK or Apply to do what could be done when settings are changed.
Nov 26 18:11:03 <auspex>	Dialogs are never instant-apply..
Nov 26 18:12:45 <calum>	anyway, I think we should move on or we could be here a while :)  any other comments on the Edit menu?
Nov 26 18:12:55 <auspex>	:-)
Nov 26 18:13:17 <irene>	Yes, please do, I'm too tired to think about this too much :-)
Nov 26 18:13:18 <auspex>	Does the Date/Time item need to be slashed?
Nov 26 18:13:48 <calum>	it is a bit ugly, certainly...
Nov 26 18:14:02 <calum>	and probably not very l10n-friendly
Nov 26 18:14:22 <auspex>	"Insert Timestamp", "Insert Time"?
Nov 26 18:14:40 <calum>	Insert Date and/or Time  :)
Nov 26 18:15:03 *	auspex hurls an anvil towards Ireland.
Nov 26 18:15:25 <irene>	Does anyone have a screenshot of the Insert Date/Time dialog that's displayed?
Nov 26 18:15:50 <irene>	It's ok, I see it....http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/insert-time-dialog.png
Nov 26 18:16:48 <Eimi>	Shouldn't the text at the bottom be in the currently chosen format?
Nov 26 18:17:04 <Eimi>	and be the current time?
Nov 26 18:17:07 <Eimi>	or...what the hell is that?
Nov 26 18:17:14 <auspex>	hehe
Nov 26 18:17:59 <calum>	good question, it doesn't seem to change whatever you select, and it's not even just showing you the current date/time...
Nov 26 18:18:18 <calum>	oh, hang on, it does change if you change the custom format
Nov 26 18:18:44 <Eimi>	in the screenshot it was in a completely different format from the custom one
Nov 26 18:19:14 <calum>	yeah, you're right, that's how it first opens... bit of a bug I would say
Nov 26 18:19:27 <calum>	I also have no idea what the syntax is supposed to be :)
Nov 26 18:19:35 <Eimi>	I'd say make it display exactly the text that would be inserted if you say "insert", changing with custom format or with predefined, too
Nov 26 18:19:47 <Eimi>	calum: that's what Help is for :)
Nov 26 18:20:29 <Eimi>	or you could add text telling the user to man strftime :)
Nov 26 18:20:32 <auspex>	Dialog title again.
Nov 26 18:20:57 <irene>	For the menu item, I think we can say "Insert Date and Time" because the dialog then allows you to choose date and time, date only, or time only. 
Nov 26 18:21:15 <calum>	let's be honest, is there any format you would want that isn't in the predefined list anyway...?
Nov 26 18:21:56 <Eimi>	calum: if so, it still would be easier just to type the damn date and time in yourself
Nov 26 18:22:02 <Eimi>	unless the dialog remembers the format
Nov 26 18:22:04 <Eimi>	does it?
Nov 26 18:22:04 <auspex>	Remove the radio buttons:  Put an item in the list "Custom". Put an entry for the custom format somewhere and leave it insensitive unless Custom is selected in the list.
Nov 26 18:22:14 <calum>	it would be nice if the formatting string for the selected format was shown somewhere too, that would save you looking up the man page when you were trying to make up your own
Nov 26 18:22:58 <calum>	it doesn't remember the last format you chose, no :/
Nov 26 18:23:04 <auspex>	:-(
Nov 26 18:23:20 <Eimi>	calum: what if choosing a predef format changed the custom format to that?
Nov 26 18:23:32 <Eimi>	so you could choose one and then tweak it
Nov 26 18:23:37 <auspex>	Scrap the dialog. Move the customization to the preferences.
Nov 26 18:24:05 <calum>	Eimi: hmm, then you would lose the last custom format you entered, though, which mightn't be so good...
Nov 26 18:24:21 *	calum checks to see what StarOffice does
Nov 26 18:24:42 <Eimi>	I think I agree with auspex, although I'd go further.
Nov 26 18:24:47 <Eimi>	Scrap the feature.
Nov 26 18:24:57 <Eimi>	But it's a plugin, so all's fair
Nov 26 18:25:38 <calum>	for one thing, SO has different menu items for Date and Time, so that solves that problem :)
Nov 26 18:26:26 <Eimi>	oh, going back a bit, s/Insert User Name/Insert User's Name/ since User Name makes people think "username"
Nov 26 18:27:17 <calum>	hmm, nice idea, but I think docs team frown on using the possesive form for things...
Nov 26 18:27:23 <calum>	harder to translate :/
Nov 26 18:28:07 <Eimi>	Dynamic things, yes, but doesn't every language have some form of possesive?
Nov 26 18:28:30 <calum>	dunno, I'll defer to irene :)
Nov 26 18:29:21 <Eimi>	"Insert Your Name" "Use This Menu Item If You Are Too Lazy to Type Your Bloody Name"
Nov 26 18:30:04 <calum>	hmm, I can't find where SO lets you define date and time formats, but it seems to be more like auspex's suggestion, i.e. you set it up somewhere and that's what it uses until you tell it otherwise
Nov 26 18:31:14 <calum>	oh ok, found it :)
Nov 26 18:31:23 <calum>	and you thought the gedit dialog was scary...
Nov 26 18:32:04 <calum>	this one lets you enter the financial quarter and all sorts :)
Nov 26 18:32:51 <Eimi>	Does it convert to Shire Reckoning?
Nov 26 18:32:51 <irene>	Eimi: Sorry I got distracted there. Yes, we should avoid possessives because they can make L10N difficult. 
Nov 26 18:34:14 <irene>	Eimi: The general guideline is to use an "of" structure instead of a possessive, ie. Name of User.
Nov 26 18:34:15 <Eimi>	ok.  Just seems so much cleaner in English.  Is it possible to say "Display this in English, but if you can't translate that translate 'Display User Name'"?  And what does "User Name" mean, anyway?  Argh, just frustrated with work and taking it out in the wrong venue.  Nevermind.
Nov 26 18:34:46 <Eimi>	I would think "Name of User" translates in English to "User's Name" and other languages can translate it otherwise.
Nov 26 18:39:18 <calum>	hmm, sounds reasonable to me I must admit :)
Nov 26 18:40:16 <irene>	Eimi: See http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/ch03.html. 
Nov 26 18:40:31 <calum>	while Eimi's reading that, conclusions on the Insert Date dialog? :)
Nov 26 18:42:55 <auspex>	irene: 404
Nov 26 18:43:40 <calum>	auspex: take the dot off the end :)
Nov 26 18:43:55 <auspex>	gah
Nov 26 18:44:00 *	auspex kicks xchat
Nov 26 18:44:33 <irene>	Eimi: actually check out http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/apc.html#saxon too which explains the reason for avoiding this possessive form. 
Nov 26 18:44:35 <Eimi>	All I can find there is "do not use apostrophes to denote possession" with no justification.  
Nov 26 18:45:17 <auspex>	irene: I question the accuracy of the latter.
Nov 26 18:46:36 <Eimi>	So you're saying that other languages do not contain the ability to denote "The name of the user"?
Nov 26 18:46:38 <irene>	auspex: can you clarify?
Nov 26 18:47:58 <irene>	eimi: no I'm not saying that, of course they do. 
Nov 26 18:48:46 <auspex>	actually, no question. It's wrong.  There is a genitive in Spanish.
Nov 26 18:49:38 <Eimi>	So what's wrong with using it in English?
Nov 26 18:50:00 <Eimi>	But I really don't care, especially for a feature that doesn't matter in the first place.  Nevermind, let's move on.
Nov 26 18:50:52 <auspex>	And in Latin dictionaries it is common to show a noun in its nominative and genitive forms.
Nov 26 18:52:11 <auspex>	The enclitic apostrophe s may be peculiar to the Germanic languages, but the gentive case most certainly is not.
Nov 26 18:52:46 <auspex>	s/gentive/genitive/
Nov 26 18:53:59 *	auspex wonders if there a documentation documentation product in bugzilla.
Nov 26 18:57:13 <irene>	auspex: You can probably log a bug against the Style Guide but let me do more research on this and get back to you with our reasons for avoiding the saxon genitive.   
Nov 26 18:58:56 <auspex>	irene: I think it just needs to say "this genitive" in a few places where it says "the genitive"
Nov 26 19:03:39 <auspex>	sed "s/\([Tt]\)he genitive form/\1his genitive form/g" apc.html   should catch it all.
Nov 26 19:05:57 -->	irene2 (irene@159.134.57.30) has joined #ui-review
Nov 26 19:07:09 <auspex>	(To really pick nits, English also has inflected genitives. See the pronouns.)
Nov 26 19:07:56 <irene2>	I lost my internet connection there so I'm now Irene2. 
Nov 26 19:08:40 <irene2>	It wasn't deliberate ;)
Nov 26 19:09:00 <auspex>	uh huh.
Nov 26 19:09:06 <auspex>	:-)
Nov 26 19:10:54 <irene2>	In the particular situation where this arose, I agree that Insert User's Name seems clear and it's hard to imagine that would be any translation problems but I'll find out more and get back to you tomorrow. OK?
Nov 26 19:12:01 <--	irene has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
Nov 26 19:13:06 <auspex>	I think the Saxon gentive is only a problem for formatted strings.   printf (_("%s's"), username); is bad, but  printf (_("User's Name")); shouldn't be a problem.
Nov 26 19:15:46 <calum>	shall we carry on or have we scared everyone off? :)
Nov 26 19:16:11 <Eimi>	Please, let's at least do one more to get the taste of this out of our heads :)
Nov 26 19:16:22 <calum>	heh
Nov 26 19:19:59 <calum>	http://www.gnome.org/~paolo/screenshots/view-menu.png then?
Nov 26 19:22:04 <irene2>	What is Output Window? (I don't have the latest version of edit with these menus)
Nov 26 19:22:30 <Eimi>	For shell commands and the Compare Files and such
Nov 26 19:24:44 <calum>	Customize Toolbar -> Priority text beside icons is now just called "text beside icons" in the Menu & Toolbar Prefs (or whatever the ui-review decided), we should match
Nov 26 19:25:06 <calum>	If indeed we think this stuff belongs here at all, I'm inclined to say it should just go in Preferences
Nov 26 19:25:42 <Eimi>	I'd agree.  Especially since Customize here would lead one to believe you can change what's on the toolbar, not just how it looks
Nov 26 19:26:09 <irene2>	What's the difference between "text beside icons" then and "Icon and Text"?
Nov 26 19:26:38 <calum>	Icon + Text = text below all icons, text beside icons = text to the right of some ('important') icons
Nov 26 19:29:52 <irene2>	Seems a bit OTT. 
Nov 26 19:30:14 <Eimi>	OTT?
Nov 26 19:30:53 <irene2>	Sorry... over the top. 
Nov 26 19:31:24 <Eimi>	it should pro'ly just use the desktop default always.  Maybe it could be changed in Preferences...
Nov 26 19:31:58 <calum>	The HIG actually recommends being able to override the desktop default in each app, but I'm not so sure that's a good idea now...
Nov 26 19:32:32 <auspex>	Those who really want it can probably edit a text file. ;-)
Nov 26 19:33:19 ---	snorp|gone is now known as snorp
Nov 26 19:34:01 <irene2>	Whereever the toolbar options end up, I'd suggest s/Icon/Icons, s/Icon and Text/Icons and Text, and s/Priority Text beside Icons/Icons and Priority Text Only. 
Nov 26 19:34:42 <Eimi>	I'd suggest "Text Below Icons" "Text Beside Icons" like the global settings
Nov 26 19:35:17 <Eimi>	ASCII Table seems out of place even for a plugin; isn't there an accessory that does exactly that?
Nov 26 19:37:01 <calum>	the accessory is certainly very similar, although it only gives you info about the printable characters
Nov 26 19:37:21 <irene2>	But, as I understand it, there isn't always text beside the icons, it's only if the text is important enough so we need to work that into the label.
Nov 26 19:37:29 <calum>	(it would be good if there was just one tool that did both, though)
Nov 26 19:37:49 ---	snorp is now known as snorp|turkey_day_break
Nov 26 19:38:35 <irene2>	"Text Below Icons" and "Priority Text Beside Icons" ?
Nov 26 19:38:48 <irene2>	I really have to go now. 
Nov 26 19:39:09 <--	irene2 has quit ()
Nov 26 19:41:02 <auspex>	I really hate this predicament where Gtk+ is one way and Bonobo reimplements the same things another way.
Nov 26 19:46:59 <calum>	yeah, vote for michael for the foundation so he doesn't have time to mess up our GUIs :)
Nov 26 19:47:22 <calum>	so, any more on the view menu or are we done?
Nov 26 19:47:31 <calum>	I have to go in a minute too...
Nov 26 19:47:36 <auspex>	I think the spirit has left us.
Nov 26 19:47:45 <calum>	to the pub it is, then...
Nov 26 19:48:03 <Eimi>	The spirit is weak, but the flesh is willing.
Nov 26 19:48:50 <calum>	well, I'm going to leave you to it... if you carry on, post the logs to somebody useful :)
Nov 26 19:49:39 <calum>	oh, found another bug in the main window...
Nov 26 19:49:55 <Eimi>	what's that?
Nov 26 19:50:27 <calum>	the inactive tabs aren't drawn in the proper theme colours, looks like paolo's overriding something to draw the 'X' button
Nov 26 19:50:36 <calum>	bad for accessibility :/
Nov 26 19:50:58 <calum>	only shows up when you use a high contrast theme I guess
Nov 26 19:51:02 <Eimi>	I really wish there were a standard tab thing with the dragging and the x button and all built in
Nov 26 19:51:26 <Eimi>	the galeon folks spent forever getting the x to look right in galeon1
Nov 26 19:51:29 <calum>	yeah, I think there's one in the pipeline...
Nov 26 19:52:27 <calum>	ok, I'm off.... have fun..
Nov 26 19:52:31 ---	You have left channel #ui-review
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 26 19:52:31 2002

